EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Sbuiko
Switzerland56 Posts
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
If you aim for an timing push it will be very delayed or small, because you invest so much into creep denial. If you want to do that while taking a early 3rd any all in will just kill you and the creep control will not really help you at all if you dont use the window after you cleared it. I did just some testing in the unit tester: 4 queens against 2 banshees and one raven with one pdd: Without a transfuse terran can trade 2 queens for two banshees, with just 1 transfuse its just 1 queen for 2 banshees. Denying a third should not really work with that. Just a fun little micro trick you can use wtih the queens: Focus Fire on friendly units trigger the PDD. You can Focus fire your hatch or queen to use the fast ROF of the ground attack to deplete the PDD and be even more cost effective. The invest seems to be far too big for just a few tumors a zerg can just replace once he walks there with his queens. This strat seems to be a nice gimmick, nothing more. And another thing that makes ravens suck hard, at least for me, is that it is yet another unit you have to manage in battles. It has priority over rines and rauders so if you select them both you have to tab to stim. While this seems to be a minor problem, it is something that is very annoying at least for me. Just boxing and stiming a few units can lead to errors when you have a raven. Unit control is all about muzzle memory, and adding the raven is quite a big change in that regard. And as others have pointed out: You still have to scan ahead. As a diamond player with both zerg and terran, adding another unit that creates a room for error to the already very control sensitive terran army seems to be a very bad idea. There is already enough clicking terran has to do to trade even with simple a clicks. And to xsnac: Its not that hard to store some energy . The queen is like a new unit now. On creep it is like a roach hydra hybrid caster unit that is the core of your early game defense and very useful later on. On creep its a better combat unit then the roach. Quite surprising what a "little" range change can do. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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blarkh
Austria72 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:21 SyrZulu wrote: 2. Risk vs Reward. What i mean by risk verses reward is; The risk of making more queens vs the reward they give. Starcraft is a game of decisions and everything has a negative side to its positive...Everything except the Queen. The Queen range update pushes Zergs to ONLY make queens in the early game to defend everything. You might ask, "Why?" and "So?" I will explain. As mentioned before, Zerg relies on droning and larvae. The more you drone, the bigger the economy, the faster you get to your comfortable lategame. Previously, Zergs had to choose between drones or lings, drones or spines, drones or roaches to defend terran harrass. Not anymore. Now it is Drone only. Since queens can defend almost every sort of pressure, Zergs rely on them. Code S zergs are using mass queen openers if you are looking to question my source. The funny thing is that QUEENS DON'T USE UP LARVAE. Yes, Zergs go these 6 or 8 queen openers because not only can they defend against early units and spread creep, but they do not cost larvae. Instead of making 4-10 lings for defense, or a spine or two, or roaches, zergs can take all those larvae that used to be units in the pre-patch and can now turn those all into more drones. The risk? No risk, because larvae is still spent all on drones while maintaining defenses with your Queens. I question whether this is the way ZvT is supposed to be or if it is too powerful in terms of Zerg's increased economy strength coupled with their increased survivability in the new patch. two spines = 300 mins, 2 larvae and -2 supply, right? 6 queens = 900 mins and +12 supply, so basically you need about 2 ovs more, resulting in 1100 mins and 2 larvae. therefore, 6 queens should be a way higher investment than two spines and should hurt your droning much more, right? Edit: of course, at least 2 of these queens you would've built anyways, but i doubt it makes up for that much. maybe you lose only 1 larva. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:01 blarkh wrote: two spines = 300 mins, 2 larvae and -2 supply, right? 6 queens = 900 mins and +12 supply, so basically you need about 2 ovs more, resulting in 1100 mins and 2 larvae. therefore, 6 queens should be a way higher investment than two spines and should hurt your droning much more, right? Edit: of course, at least 2 of these queens you would've built anyways, but i doubt it makes up for that much. maybe you lose only 1 larva. But 6 queens has almost infinitely more opportunity for use than 2 spines. Queens can shoot air and ground, are mobile, spread creep, build-up energy for future transfusion. Building extra spines early game has costs in the fact that they are very limited in their roles. Queens have a variety of uses that make them a much better investment early game than extra spine crawlers. You can't simply break everything down into addition and subtraction. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:54 xsnac wrote: first of all is kinda working i remember gstl finals startale vs prime , maru did it vs july and was working . anyway that was pre patch . however , zerg wont have heal cuz i he will use all energy on creep tumor . terran has to scan for army , but not anymore for deny creep = profit .all the scans u waste usualy for deny creep , you can use for mule . so i find raven VERY cost efficient in that way . p.s. i dont play terran im just trying to help . and i saw a few times on pro level this opening even after 6 range queen buff.so dont be hard on me I've tried the raven/banshee one, especially since Maru made it look soooooo good(tbh though, I feel July made it just look so awesome rather, his defense was... poor is an understatement). The thing is though, to build 2x banshees, you need 120 seconds, if you want PDD it is another 60+80(normally the raven comes last), so by the time they are all together the zerg either sucks or can easily repel it and protect his creep spread. It worked pretty well pre-patch though imo, simply since you'd could soften the queens up, waste transfuses, get them out of position and stuff like that. After it however the hellions don't really help anymore, the zerg gets a 3rd hatch faster which means even more queen production after the port is scouted. Basically the banshee raven stuff is not that great(and doesn't do anything to creep spread). Edit: On June 21 2012 20:49 Cereb wrote:I think it's kinda okay that Zergs have a build which you cannot punish by doing early game attacks or all ins but by econ play. I think it's a part of a good RTS. I agree, but that econ play should be hatch first(ZvT), FFE and 1 rax expo. These are very econ heavy builds, that can be very hard to punish assuming you know how to defend it. Going to a 3rd base without any risk and without any real chance to be punished and then just terran being straight up worse in lategame... That just doesn't sound good to me at all. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:09 SupLilSon wrote: But 6 queens has almost infinitely more opportunity for use than 2 spines. Queens can shoot air and ground, are mobile, spread creep, build-up energy for future transfusion. Building extra spines early game has costs in the fact that they are very limited in their roles. Queens have a variety of uses that make them a much better investment early game than extra spine crawlers. You can't simply break everything down into addition and subtraction. You're missing something here... zerg wants to drone hardcore early game, right? A single, saturated hatchery gives about 900 minerals per minute income. Larva income rate is something like 10 / minute (with good injects). So you can see, that in a single minute zerg can make 8 drones off every hatchery and an overlord. That's 500 minerals, leaving 400 left. Zerg does not want to loose worker supply into buildings or defenses, getting 4 spines would slow him down. But he can get another queen and another overlord, investing maximum amount of larva in economy, keeping his money low while building up a considerable defensive force. | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On June 21 2012 06:05 geokilla wrote: Right now, Terran is all about the early to mid game. Win by proxies and pure aggression. Once you hit the late game, just GG out without even attempting to fight. And in another thread.... I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:43 Crownlol wrote: I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... The stat itself doesn't matter at all. My point was he's so busy trying to rile people up with some stupid misleading stats that he hasn't even bothered to check the accuracy of what he's posting, he just mindlessly reposted it to TL.net, had a thread locked and is now posting it in other threads. I'm completely sick of a minority of stupid players (mostly Terrans right now) posting selectively chosen or manipulated statistics purely because they suit their opinion and help promote their whine. It's almost impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without people jumping in with nonsense statistics that don't show anything. I could just as easily post selective meaningless statistics that show things are balanced, anyone could, statistics don't show much at all, especially not selectively chosen small sample sizes. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:43 Crownlol wrote: I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... Haha, I've been watching TSL eu classifier thinking: wow, how did Select got this far with T? And then he proceeds to bunker rush Sheth out of the tournament (2:0). But don't worry there's a patch incoming with something like "Bunkers may be built within 12 range of a CC" or something :D | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873 This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote: Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873 This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms.... | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On June 21 2012 13:20 SaberNodoka wrote: Please stop repeating the raven this raven that. It has been discussed in prior pages. There were substantial arguements as to why ravens dont really work. Yeah I play Zerg and I'm sick of hearing about ravens too. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On June 21 2012 21:49 avc wrote: The stat itself doesn't matter at all. My point was he's so busy trying to rile people up with some stupid misleading stats that he hasn't even bothered to check the accuracy of what he's posting, he just mindlessly reposted it to TL.net, had a thread locked and is now posting it in other threads. I'm completely sick of a minority of stupid players (mostly Terrans right now) posting selectively chosen or manipulated statistics purely because they suit their opinion and help promote their whine. It's almost impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without people jumping in with nonsense statistics that don't show anything. I could just as easily post selective meaningless statistics that show things are balanced, anyone could, statistics don't show much at all, especially not selectively chosen small sample sizes. The Thread I created was for a lack of content and was directed here. I posted it, And I'm not a Terran player ffs. You should read the full post of what your replying to instead of being a blind Terran hater. And you should note that my Thread was created for the lack of terrans overall, Which makes the game less fun because of lack of diversity between races. I've taken the liberty of checking your previous posts. and It's either Zerg whine / Terran hating or being plane mad for something you can't control. Stop being a controlfreak and discuss with facts backing them up. Instead of going blind rage whenever someone disagree's with you. Clean up your posting "bro" And I just noticed this post which pretty much give you all the whining you can get, as your so eagerly trying to hunt down MKP's response to TvZ + Show Spoiler + "Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose." | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On June 21 2012 22:02 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Wow your stupid. The Thread I created was for a lack of content and was directed here. I posted it, And I'm not a Terran player ffs. You should read the full post of what your replying to instead of being a blind Terran hater. And you should note that my Thread was created for the lack of terrans overall, Which makes the game less fun because of lack of diversity between races. I've taken the liberty of checking your previous posts. and It's either Zerg whine / Terran hating or being plane mad for something you can't control. Stop being a controlfreak and discuss with facts backing them up. Instead of going blind rage whenever someone disagree's with you. Clean up your posting "bro" Keep it civil please. No need to call people stupid. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On June 21 2012 22:04 MstrJinbo wrote: Keep it civil please. No need to call people stupid. I agree, got mad because whenever I post real facts showing the decline of terrans overall he gets all supersayan on me and basicly sais FACTS DONT MATTER! But your right. No need to be a ass. Sorry about that | ||
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