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1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Aoxer
44 Posts
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riff
United States113 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:59 CajunMan wrote: Terren players need to learn how to play mech. Seriously guys.....seriously.....Every build is still viable marine tank etc. but require you to keep the game even not just sit on your ass because these are mid game builds not late game. If you want to turtle and dick a round for 20 min before moving out your going to need mech just like if protoss moves out they need big AOE dmg via collosus or HTs your not special. Terren for too long have relied on just every unit comp being imbalanced but you need to realize you can't just build any mix of units and win when you move out. Mech is really the answer for these QQing terrens and you know what when you whine you don't want to play mech you will quit and better players will take your place because the game requires effort now. I find it hilarious that you are claiming to know something that MVP, MKP, and other Code S Terrans don't know. You sir, are absurd. Thanks for the laugh. To your point: mech may not be 100% explored, but at this point in the game, I think we can safely say that mech has been explored quite deeply, and it is not a silver bullet. It still has its uses, and can be quite good in very specific situations, on specific maps, against specific opponents. But it will never be *the* answer. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:53 avc wrote: I personally consider the Queen and Overlord change to have been necessary and important changes to improve the game. There were big problems with TvZ. This is the core of your post. The rest is just fancy rhetoric to make it seem like you're not celebrating the fact that your race has the upper hand in the matchup right now. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
I just watched Maru vs. Violet, Maru went mech and Violet won when he dropped all his roaches in Maru's main base, that's how simple it can be to beat mech player. | ||
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Coolness53
United States668 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:21 Rokoz wrote: I like people who suggest Mech, without ever explaining why it's so good. I just watched Maru vs. Violet, Maru went mech and Violet won when he dropped all his roaches in Maru's main base, that's how simple it can be to beat mech player. It is because he overextended. It is like saying Broodlords go to attack your 4th and you go drop in a zerg players base and win...It was a bad move for Maru. He knew it at the end of the game. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:15 riff wrote: I find it hilarious that you are claiming to know something that MVP, MKP, and other Code S Terrans don't know. You sir, are absurd. Thanks for the laugh. To your point: mech may not be 100% explored, but at this point in the game, I think we can safely say that mech has been explored quite deeply, and it is not a silver bullet. It still has its uses, and can be quite good in very specific situations, on specific maps, against specific opponents. But it will never be *the* answer. I didn't say they don't know they are just stuck on the old builds. We can even see it now Marine King is moving more and more to bio mech and in some games total mech. You obviously don't watch enough games to know there current trends or the meta game well enough. It is good on every map against any zerg build it is THE anwser. Also to the oter guy citing 1 game where a guy lost doesn't break the build. Violet won one time doing X that build will never work! | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:21 Rokoz wrote: I like people who suggest Mech, without ever explaining why it's so good. I just watched Maru vs. Violet, Maru went mech and Violet won when he dropped all his roaches in Maru's main base, that's how simple it can be to beat mech player. In that case, I present you a perfect hard-counter to your argument. I just watched Stephano vs TSL-Polt on Antiga. Polt went MMM and Stephano went his standard style into lategame BL/Festor. Stephano was up several mining and operating bases above Polt when Polt pushed out off 3 base. Polt won when he dropped in a multi-prong system moving in from the outlying bases and completely cut off any chance of a strong remax occuring. That's how simple it can be to beat BL/festor. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Terran is used to early game pressure or cheese or however you call it... zerg is used to surviving and play late game. Now zerg has easier time to survive, zergs need to adapt less to the new playstyle, terran has to adapt more, hence the change in win/loss ratios. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:30 sCCrooked wrote: In that case, I present you a perfect hard-counter to your argument. I just watched Stephano vs TSL-Polt on Antiga. Polt went MMM and Stephano went his standard style into lategame BL/Festor. Stephano was up several mining and operating bases above Polt when Polt pushed out off 3 base. Polt won when he dropped in a multi-prong system moving in from the outlying bases and completely cut off any chance of a strong remax occuring. That's how simple it can be to beat BL/festor. While both examples are obviously irrelevant, nobody has shown that mech is the solution, and nobody has given any solution to the problem of Zerg coating the map with Creep by 10 minutes/being able to take a free third. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
Granted I'm not a high level player, but I feel that zerg finally has a way to deny early scouting to match protoss and terran walls, and we're no longer using our macro units on hold position on ramps away from our hatcheries to deny a 2 hellion runby that could kill enough drones to put the zerg impossibly behind. It would be like requiring that in order for a terran to stop a ling runby, they would need to cast a spell that would make it so they could no longer train scvs, and slow down their army production, or risk losing enough economy to put them impossibly behind themselves. Without the range, while queens are awesome, they lose a lot of their utility without something to inject, and if they are the only queens available, zerg is way behind if they cannot inject because their macro unit is defending. Yes, you can make more queens to do the inject job, but that doesn't necessarily mean the hellions would be stopped without that range. Remember hellions are crazy fast and queens don't exactly kill them instantly, a hellion can outmaneuver a queen for quite a while. I guess all this is just to say that I don't personally believe this was an overpowered change, but due to my lack of high level experience I could be wrong. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:33 Noobity wrote: I think this is going to be far less of a factor when terrans begin getting ravens consistently, or decide to bring marines or marauders along with their initial hellions to try to contain creep. I don't think that it's impossible or exceptionally gimping to the play of the terran to efficiently deny creep spread. I think it's primarily a matter of terrans being used to their current creep spread denying methods and being more reluctant to switch things up. Hellions aren't the only units that can deny creep spread, and queens are susceptable to marauders which are available before hellions. 3 marauders with hellion backup to defend against lings may push the econ of the terran back a bit, but should do the same job. It would also be considerably more difficult for the zerg to stop regardless of queen range, pushing back the zerg econ as they break out of the mini contain. Granted I'm not a high level player, but I feel that zerg finally has a way to deny early scouting to match protoss and terran walls, and we're no longer using our macro units on hold position on ramps away from our hatcheries to deny a 2 hellion runby that could kill enough drones to put the zerg impossibly behind. It would be like requiring that in order for a terran to stop a ling runby, they would need to cast a spell that would make it so they could no longer train scvs, and slow down their army production, or risk losing enough economy to put them impossibly behind themselves. Without the range, while queens are awesome, they lose a lot of their utility without something to inject, and if they are the only queens available, zerg is way behind if they cannot inject because their macro unit is defending. Yes, you can make more queens to do the inject job, but that doesn't necessarily mean the hellions would be stopped without that range. Remember hellions are crazy fast and queens don't exactly kill them instantly, a hellion can outmaneuver a queen for quite a while. I guess all this is just to say that I don't personally believe this was an overpowered change, but due to my lack of high level experience I could be wrong. How are you supposed to get a few Marines and Marauders WITH your initial Hellions WHILE expanding? By the time you get there the Zerg will already have Speed and like 4+ Queens. You won't do an iota of damage and your expansion will be delayed. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Anyway they should have implemented ovie speed alone first, then saved the Queen buff for a later patch if it was still necessary. Two huge changes for early game seems excessive. Blizz should have done it one at a time to really understand how each buff would change the game. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:38 cydial wrote: I think 3 orbital hard counters this if you macro right (Take note of how I said right). You can just completely crush zerg in the late game with mech and have 3-3 by 17 min or less and push before broodlords pop. If they do? pull back and get ready to defend. Zergs have been going for super-fast Hive + 3/3 these days, so your 17 minute push is going to encounter a wall of BLs. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
GRAY AREA PEOPLE GRAY AREA | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote: The Zerg advice reminds me of pre-Infestor buff when everyone told Zergs to use Nydus more. Understandably, Zergs were upset and told them this advice was obviously not useful/fair. And now, when the exact same problem is facing Terran (and Protoss) in that there's no way to slow down a snowballing Zerg, we see that Zerg is perfectly comfortable retooling the same awful argument that was used against them. Hypocrisy at its finest. no you don't understand, people telling terrans to build more ravens isn't at all like people telling zergs to build more nydus because And furthermore, User was warned for this post | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
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