EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
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Dvriel
607 Posts
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:25 Decendos wrote: some strategies T can work with is something like building just 1 scouting helion into superfast 2 banshees + raven while fast 3rd CC. the helions sees speedlings/roaches coming, banshee + raven can kill creep. with that terran really need to adapt to fast 3rd base zerg. if zerg goes 6 queen into superfast 3rd that means for a really long time Z cant pressure T, so T needs to land their 3rd CC at their 3rd base and establish it with bunker + depot wall. U also have to start siege tank production, or else u would just die to any all in even tho u see it coming with the hellion. Which means that terran can't be agressive before stim, which would be heavily delayed. U can still do pushes/all ins as zerg while getting the 3rd base. Add production and tricks ur opponent. Then u can use that production to add drones later and transition well. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:25 Decendos wrote: some strategies T can work with is something like building just 1 scouting helion into superfast 2 banshees + raven while fast 3rd CC. the helions sees speedlings/roaches coming, banshee + raven can kill creep. with that terran really need to adapt to fast 3rd base zerg. if zerg goes 6 queen into superfast 3rd that means for a really long time Z cant pressure T, so T needs to land their 3rd CC at their 3rd base and establish it with bunker + depot wall. You're kidding, right? Zergs need about 8 minutes to set up their 3-base eco. Yeah, if they go up for a fast hive you can get away with the little bunkered third of yours... but just as well they may transition into the 11/12 minute roach-ling-bane max attack and rip the third apart. So... all you need is a strong, terran army that hits before the 10 minute mark. The army must withstand a constant stream of roach-ling-bane reinforcements (like 20+ worth of larva every 30 seconds or so) and kill the queens. Moreover, the army should do this without medivac support and with a third base behind it too... Well, I've seen some attempts to do this with hellion / marine / marauder attacks. It usually goes like this: terran kills all zerg units for reinforcement waves 1 and 2. And then dies horribly. Good luck! | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Antieque
Korea (South)79 Posts
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:46 Sif_ wrote: Why is it that terrans always has to "adapt" and "learn new strats"??? Nerf the other races and let them adjust aswell, come on http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S Yet there are more terrans than zergs who advanced. Think it's too early to call. | ||
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birchman
Sweden393 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:49 DrPandaPhD wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S Yet there are more terrans than zergs who advanced. Think it's too early to call. Read the thread and watch the games. If it's too early to tell based on the GSL, why are you using those 6 TvZ games as THE balance indicator? | ||
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Barteh
Netherlands108 Posts
Now, Z doesn't have to focus their every move just on stopping the early pressure anymore and suddenly they're OP? I personally think the Terran mindset is largely stagnated, still stuck in the era where they could just do whatever early game and then basically drag the Zerg into the shed in the backyard and finish it off. If you think Terran is the only race that ever has to "adapt" and "learn new strats" you're probably either very new to SC2 or very ignorant. | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:49 DrPandaPhD wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S Yet there are more terrans than zergs who advanced. Think it's too early to call. Definitely the tournament where terrans have done the best post patch. But today's group should even it up a bit of the number of Z and T advancing. There's also more terrans in ro32 which u have to count in. Also, this is the smallest example of stats after the patch. It could be pretty random when it so few games. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:54 Barteh wrote: It's strange to me how a lot of people don't seem to remember how TvZ went just after release. It was a feat to fast-expand as Z, let alone triple expand. The biggest problem with hellions was that they didn't function as a harass unit that could do some damage, they functioned as an executioner of the entire Z macro and there were very few ways to stop it. The Z either held or died straight up, with T just going on happily. I remember how was the TvZ 2 months ago: it was the best matchup. Yeah, perhaps zergs struggled in GSL code S but were doing fine everywhere else. Now, Z doesn't have to focus their every move just on stopping the early pressure anymore and suddenly they're OP? I personally think the Terran mindset is largely stagnated, still stuck in the era where they could just do whatever early game and then basically drag the Zerg into the shed in the backyard and finish it off. Of course it is OP, since T needs to do early / mid game damage in order to enter late game at an even footing. So yeah, you take away terran's ability to do the early / mid game damage and the game becomes imbalanced. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:40 scypio wrote: You're kidding, right? Zergs need about 8 minutes to set up their 3-base eco. Yeah, if they go up for a fast hive you can get away with the little bunkered third of yours... but just as well they may transition into the 11/12 minute roach-ling-bane max attack and rip the third apart. So... all you need is a strong, terran army that hits before the 10 minute mark. The army must withstand a constant stream of roach-ling-bane reinforcements (like 20+ worth of larva every 30 seconds or so) and kill the queens. Moreover, the army should do this without medivac support and with a third base behind it too... Well, I've seen some attempts to do this with hellion / marine / marauder attacks. It usually goes like this: terran kills all zerg units for reinforcement waves 1 and 2. And then dies horribly. Good luck! 11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16848 Posts
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Campfire
United States48 Posts
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:52 Ghanburighan wrote: Read the thread and watch the games. If it's too early to tell based on the GSL, why are you using those 6 TvZ games as THE balance indicator? Because terrans makes it seem impossible to win. But in the toughest tournament they seem to be doing equal to the other races. As I said, I think it's too early to call. GSL counts higher than any other tournament because it's THE best players. And you shouldn't balance things around lower level pro-gamers. The problem with SC2 compared to Brood War is that there a lot more "over the weekend tournaments". Zerg is the best race for a tournament like DH/IPL/MLG because the zerg race as a whole has lot less room for innovation. Therefore they play these tournaments as it would've been ladder. Terran / Protoss however has a lot room for more tailored strategies for maps/opponents, which they benefit from in GSL. This makes is really difficult to balance because it's two very different types of tournaments. I value GSL above all other tournaments by a lot. That's where the balance changes should be looked at. And atm it looks ok, it's just way too early to call. There is a lot of differnece in having only terrans in the top 6 in GSL or only having zergs in the top 6. What if 6 terrans actually make top 6? | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
If it does turn out to be too big of an advantage, id rather have them buff the other races a little bit rather than taking the range away again. EDIT : but I think zerg is just doing really good overall right now, and helion play just became a lot less effective. Seems to me the terrans just gotta come up with some new stuff, and the metagame will shift. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote: 11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On June 20 2012 20:09 DrPandaPhD wrote: Because terrans makes it seem impossible to win. But in the toughest tournament they seem to be doing equal to the other races. As I said, I think it's too early to call. GSL counts higher than any other tournament because it's THE best players. And you shouldn't balance things around lower level pro-gamers. The problem with SC2 compared to Brood War is that there a lot more "over the weekend tournaments". Zerg is the best race for a tournament like DH/IPL/MLG because the zerg race as a whole has lot less room for innovation. Therefore they play these tournaments as it would've been ladder. Terran / Protoss however has a lot room for more tailored strategies for maps/opponents, which they benefit from in GSL. This makes is really difficult to balance because it's two very different types of tournaments. I value GSL above all other tournaments by a lot. That's where the balance changes should be looked at. And atm it looks ok, it's just way too early to call. There is a lot of differnece in having only terrans in the top 6 in GSL or only having zergs in the top 6. What if 6 terrans actually make top 6? GSL is indeed the highest indicative of skill. And it's also widespread that Korean terrans manage to pull off basically anything. The nerf hammer hits and they rise above it every single time. But where does that leave us, NA master players? It's becoming more and more a huge mess. | ||
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