EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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xSTaRFiSHx
Germany176 Posts
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Killmouse
Austria5700 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:32 Tenken wrote: queen range made it so half of the terran winrates were not based on the first 8 minutes of the game. now that that it has changed, bad terrans start to die. good zergs begin to win. terran cant win early game, zerg dominate in late game, just sayin its a loose loose situation for terran | ||
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xSTaRFiSHx
Germany176 Posts
What kind of flawed logic is this!? Disgusting. >.< | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:04 xSTaRFiSHx wrote: Why doso many people argue that the queenbuff is justified because zerg might have been underpowered in the past, so it is okay to be overpowered now!? What kind of flawed logic is this!? Disgusting. >.< As I've said, Blizzard balancing philosophy since WoW has been to overnerf imbalanced stuff while overbuffing underpowered stuff, making them in turn overpowered. Now's Zerg's turn. Soon they will probably make Zerg underpowered and something like Terran overpowered and the cycle will go on. By the way I don't really know why people don't do mass queen builds ? The mobility is no issue with overlord speed while dropping tumors while walking to their base, and it's the most cost-efficient 2 supply unit even without taking into account transfusion. Perfect synergy with Roaches as well. Thoughts? I used to do this back when they only had 3 range and it worked pretty well in low-mid masters | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
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avc
121 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:52 andropopp wrote: queens for 2food actually will kill a zealot, marauder, or stalker which also cost 2food. a queen kills 2 combat shield + stim marines too The only one of those which costs more than the Queen is the Marauder and that is a unit which is anti armour and the Queen isn't anti armoured. Are you going to complain how a Zealot does well against a Marauder? Do you really think it's ok for two Marines to be able to kill a Queen? What changed TvZ wasn't the Queen change, it was the new builds and styles emerging from Zerg players. The patch itself wouldn't have changed much if Zerg players continued to play the same, but they aren't and Terran players are finding it really hard to work out how to deal with it. The Queen change most likely wont be reversed since they plan on giving the Reaper 7 range in HOTS and that's insanely good even against a 5 range Queen, can you imagine a 7 range Reaper against a 3 range Queen? What Terran needs are some subtle changes to things like the Raven and Reapers to make them just a little bit more useful/desirable and then some time is needed to see what comes of it. The research to get the Raven out should probably come out quicker but cost the same and the Seeker Missile should have it's range boosted one or two units. The Reaper in WoL should go back to it's previous build time of 40seconds (it's bounced between those for some time). It's frustrating to try and judge balance from all the win rates thrown around because it's mostly lower skilled Terran players and as anyone who's used to this game will know, the results of a TvZ are often decided by how well the Terran can micro his units. If the Terran isn't MarineKing standard but plays against a pretty good Zerg they will have more trouble and the game will be tilted. You can't judge balance off that and that fact also makes it very hard to balance the match up anyway. You can't balance it based on MarineKing level of skill, because you'd have to buff Banelings to make them useful as he's so good at control and you can't balance it based on mediocre Terran players because they fear Banelings and die to them all the time as they can't control that well. Time and effort are needed, but also a slight improvement to the speed at which you can get a Raven and Reaper out would certainly help the Terran variate what they do a little more. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:07 Shikyo wrote: As I've said, Blizzard balancing philosophy since WoW has been to overnerf imbalanced stuff while overbuffing underpowered stuff, making them in turn overpowered. Now's Zerg's turn. Soon they will probably make Zerg underpowered and something like Terran overpowered and the cycle will go on. still a really really flawed logic in a game that was planned to be an esport. zzz | ||
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Fueled
United States1610 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:01 Killmouse wrote: terran cant win early game, zerg dominate in late game, just sayin its a loose loose situation for terran Give it a few more weeks and we'll see some new creative openings instead of the reactored hellion into expand builds in TvZ and it will all balance itself out. Edit:  | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:09 zhurai wrote: still a really really flawed logic in a game that was planned to be an esport. zzz It would be flawed if it was true. Good thing it isnt. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:09 zhurai wrote: still a really really flawed logic in a game that was planned to be an esport. zzz Yeah. Regardless of winrates, I think i'd rather have them keep the balance the same for more time, 6months - 1 year etc. I'd much rather have the metagame shaped by players rather then patches. But this has sadly been the model for years now and everyone's getting complacent with just qq-ing on forums and knowing things will get nerfed/buffed asap | ||
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sertas
Sweden887 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:59 OnFire wrote: These are just some of my thoughts on the subject but still... You are talking from a perspective of how Terrans played before the patch... I think Terran definitely has to play differently now. 15CC is the new standard, and I think playing greedily is the best way Terran can play at the moment. I like the queen change so far because now Terran is much more reliant on having a strong build order, and being able to follow it without misstakes, instead of just relying entirely on Hellions to get into the midgame. The patch was needed because TvZ was getting extremely stagnant, Hellion openings were simply better in almost every single way then any other opening and this is obviously bad for strategy. Having 15CC be the new standard is good, because theres a huge amount of build orders viable afterwards. From my experience, midgame pushes, atleast in the oldschool kind-of-way, are no longer viable and approaching TvZ with a more turtley state of mind seems to be the way to go. If you watch Flash's games against Soulkey from the showmatch tourney at MLG, I think he's got the right idea. He played a very passive style and only pushed when he knew he had to. Mech is also on the uprise. Thor/Raven compositions in the lategame are ridiculously good... ultra lategame armies composed of 50/50 Thor/raven is probably the strongest army a Terran can get against Zerg. WIll write more later... I disagree that the patch made the match-up more refreshing to watch. Pre-patch, you could have played 14/15CC if you wanted to. IMO all the patch did was to restrict Terran's flexibility in the early game. I really don't get why everyone hates reactor hellion openings so much. IMO, while it's the same opening every game, there are different ways a Terran can play. 1raxFE into reactor hellion, Reactor hellion into expo, etc etc. And then from there the Terrans could then transition into anything (and by anything I mean, banshees, Mech, standard marine tank, marauder hellion all in, double reactor hellion all-in, anything). All the patch did was weaken not just reactor hellion openings, but a wide variety of other Terran openings, including the now dead Reaper expand (RIP). And having 15cc become the new standard, it puts Terran into the same situation Zerg was a year or 2 ago where Zergs could choose to cheese if they wanted to (with Terran being unable to scout it). MKP has been cheesed so many times because he always goes for CC first almost every game these days. I don't get why the reactor hellion opening is criticized for being too stagnant, when the FFE and 14 hatch openings have been around since forever. I'll say it again, while it's entirely possible that Terrans will eventually find a fix, I dislike the patch because of the fact that it has caused a period in which Terrans have to relearn the match-up when it was completely unnecessary prior to that. To me it really just ruined the match-up for me. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:59 OnFire wrote: These are just some of my thoughts on the subject but still... You are talking from a perspective of how Terrans played before the patch... I think Terran definitely has to play differently now. 15CC is the new standard, and I think playing greedily is the best way Terran can play at the moment. I like the queen change so far because now Terran is much more reliant on having a strong build order, and being able to follow it without misstakes, instead of just relying entirely on Hellions to get into the midgame. The patch was needed because TvZ was getting extremely stagnant, Hellion openings were simply better in almost every single way then any other opening and this is obviously bad for strategy. Having 15CC be the new standard is good, because theres a huge amount of build orders viable afterwards. From my experience, midgame pushes, atleast in the oldschool kind-of-way, are no longer viable and approaching TvZ with a more turtley state of mind seems to be the way to go. If you watch Flash's games against Soulkey from the showmatch tourney at MLG, I think he's got the right idea. He played a very passive style and only pushed when he knew he had to. Mech is also on the uprise. Thor/Raven compositions in the lategame are ridiculously good... ultra lategame armies composed of 50/50 Thor/raven is probably the strongest army a Terran can get against Zerg. WIll write more later... Hellions were used to deny creep and for map control, not to straight up win with them. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:11 Fueled wrote: Give it a few more weeks and we'll see some new creative openings instead of the reactored hellion into expand builds in TvZ and it will all balance itself out. Edit: This is kind of frustrating me. The brutal fact of the matter is, terran has no unexplored openings. If you want map control to ensure you can spot the allins coming, you need the hellions. If you want to play risky, you can skip the hellions(since it's not like they do anything except spot allins comings), but there really isn't much that you actually gain from it. Bio allins maybe, but with the new overlord a zerg should be able to spot them coming. Unless a pro player can make a new unit out of thin air, all the different econ builds have been tried and tested, and the hellion sadly still comes out ontop for solid play, as much as it sucks. Edit: If you go over the units that have been tried and tested by terran, that will result in a count of all the units. 3 tank rine push(MVP did this like 5 times in a row vs Nestea like a year ago) banshee(with/without cloak, with/without reactor hellion) reaper openings Raven SK terran style(which admittedly fell out of grace faster than I expected) hellion rine timing attacks(ala Demu fx) rine rauder attacks 2 rax rine 5+ rax rine hellion rauder hellion into rine, tank, bc allin The only unit that really hasn't gotten much love for a while is the Thor(Since Lost temple thorship days). There really isn't much left to play with. | ||
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Clefairy
1570 Posts
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OnFire
324 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:26 SyrZulu wrote: Hellions were used to deny creep and for map control, not to straight up win with them. I never said Hellions were used to win straight up with, I said Hellions were used to carry Terran safely into the midgame. Perhaps the Queen buff was to much... but Hellion openings were to strong in my opinion... in pro games, Terrans hellion expanded like 95% of the time, for like 6 months straight... if any strategy/opening is used that much, it means it's to strong, or possibly that the race is lacking of a different strat/opening... | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:42 OnFire wrote: I never said Hellions were used to win straight up with, I said Hellions were used to carry Terran safely into the midgame. Perhaps the Queen buff was to much... but Hellion openings were to strong in my opinion... in pro games, Terrans hellion expanded like 95% of the time, for like 6 months straight... if any strategy/opening is used that much, it means it's to strong, or possibly that the race is lacking of a different strat/opening... Then add options to go for, rather than destroy the only one that keeps the terran in the MU. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:50 bOneSeven wrote:The other guy who said "bad example mkp mma"...Are you disagreeing with MMA who trains at least 8 hours a day when he says 20-30% wr ? LOL - Who by the way, MMA looked beyond godlike in tvz b4 the patch It's not what he said. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:09 n0ise wrote: so, outside of balance talk, anyone figured a way to still have map control, or get good harass, or at least control creep spread early on? QXC's forward bunker. | ||
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OnFire
324 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:48 Zarahtra wrote: Then add options to go for, rather than destroy the only one that keeps the terran in the MU. Yeah, you're right. Queen buff was probably to much. They should have buffed something else to encourage Terran trying different strategies. Perhaps made Spines build or burrow faster or something. Still, I think it's to early to completely call the Queen buff a bad move. | ||
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