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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Probably not as op as everyone is making it out to be, and I do think Terran will adapt. The GomZvZ predictions don't seem to be coming true at all, only two zergs have made it to the next round so far and they're Zergs that SHOULD be there.
However, I don't think it was really necessary either and I don't like the direction ZvT is headed in terms of entertainment. I'd of been totally content with just receiving the overlord buff which I think was all Zerg really needed in ZvT. The queen buff kind of came out of left field and was implemented unusually quicker than anticipated.
ZvT seems to be moving towards what ZvP is. Balanced, but fairly boring. There's a loss of the early game dynamic that added diversity and risks at the start of the game against terran that made it exciting to play/watch. The 4 queen opening was my favorite build to open with, but it had its risks. Now it just feels like I should almost always go for 4 queens if not 6.
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On June 20 2012 17:03 Dvriel wrote:
I made an experiment:
TvZ vs Very Hard Blizzards I.A. As you all shoud know,IA,goes for 1 base all ins 2 times till minute 12.I tried 6 queens and succesfully defended the first bio push of MM,not losing a single Queen,because of Transfuse.Range 5 has changed things a lot,this wasnt possible befeore,because Queen must move to do damage on marines...
it's A.I. not I.A
Artificial Intelligence, not Information Assurance or Iowa
and I remember when I played ZvT vs the very hard blizzard ai, it was like FE and then keep making units to crush their push, and then take a 3rd, drone up a bit, and then make a bunch of units to kill the 2nd push or die...that was long time ago though.
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Canada16217 Posts
This happens after every patch where winrates swing in the favor of the buffed race, too early too tell still give it another 2 weeks or so.
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On June 20 2012 17:08 NovemberstOrm wrote:
This happens after every patch where winrates swing in the favor of the buffed race, too early too tell still give it another 2 weeks or so.
watch. even after 2 weeks people will say "nah it's still too early" or "gah stop complaining"
as usual.
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On June 20 2012 17:02 Flonomenalz wrote:
I think it's slightly overpowered, but it looks heavily OP because of how hard it is to adjust in SC2.
Whenever a very powerful build or style of play comes out, it takes a while to adjust because of how stubborn SC2 players are. When Protoss deathball was rampaging everything, us Zs had been doing a certain style so long, it felt like nothing else could work because we didn't know any alternate styles. Same with 1/1/1 vs P. Same with Muta/Ling vP, same with Ling/Infestor vT, etc, etc.
I think Terrans, for now, just have to accept that early aggression isn't the same anymore, and you have to explore mid game options. I think the MKP style of mass mass medivacs is a very strong style, but is very micro dependent. I also think Ravens haven;t been explored enough in the late game.
I tried some ravens in TvZ.200 gas is too much for early or mid game.Just impossible.We need to make upgrades on BIO or Mech,but if you go ravens you need their energy upgrade 150 150 (corvius reactor),then the Seeker missile,and even when you got it,the Raven doesnt pop with the enough energy to send a single missile.If you go SP+lab,you may wanna open Banshee,but if you made it Cloak,its a 300 gas you already spent.Banshee opening is a 1-1-1 nad you may wanna make some tanks to denfend ling/bane/roach all.ins,and its even more gas.Raven is pretty slow,and HSK too,so doesnt pay to throw it,since we saw yesterday,i think it was Symbol,microing Corruptors and avoiding splash so easy.
I would wish to see Zergs being forced to research Fungal,as P do with Storm and Terran must do with HSM.
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I love how the OP and other terran players claim that getting 3 CC, you are instantly going to turtle and defend for the late game. Last I checked, in the current styles of ZvP, zerg get 3 bases for the mid to late game scenarios. By going an early third (not 12+ minutes in), you are boosting yourself for the mid-game in which would create ways for the late game later (if there is a late game). If I were to scout a zerg going the OH SO OBVIOUS 6 queens, it shouldn't take much brain power to throw down your third prior to the zerg throwing theirs down. Not only that, the zerg would have to double expand (third and fourth) because THEORETICALLY, zerg needs to have a base ahead of terran and toss to be in the zone.
I wish a mod would consider closing this thread down. This thread has gone to pure balance whine as opposed to logical solutions.
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On June 20 2012 17:05 Thune wrote:
And also the situation hasnt changed since one month (still the same builds), so clearly terrans havent adepted yet (besides of maybe qxc and morrow who actually put a few thoughts into that regard).
In Dreamhack Morrow won all his ZvT and lost all TvZ outisde of 1 bo3 in first group stage against some unknown Zerg.
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raven is really costly in the early-mid game. if you invest into a raven then you delay every timing push essentially skipping +1, or siege tanks/siege mode, or medivacs if you want to get early raven. but if you want to play greedy and maybe do a triple CC expand off of hellion raven then by all means
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I think that this could be an important metagame shift. Dustin Browder stated that the win ration across the leagues isn't actually that significant and that it just seems bad for Terran, IDK if that is true because its only been 1 month, but still, I believe that we should let this sit for about 1 more month, if it continues, instead of nerfin queens they could bring back hellion BFH power, or terrans could rush ghosts to snipe the queens or EMP them, making them completely useless and destroy larvae production. Either way I agree with Stahlife.
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On June 20 2012 17:08 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 17:03 Dvriel wrote:
I made an experiment:
TvZ vs Very Hard Blizzards I.A. As you all shoud know,IA,goes for 1 base all ins 2 times till minute 12.I tried 6 queens and succesfully defended the first bio push of MM,not losing a single Queen,because of Transfuse.Range 5 has changed things a lot,this wasnt possible befeore,because Queen must move to do damage on marines... it's A.I. not I.A Artificial Intelligence, not Information Assurance or Iow aand I remember when I played ZvT vs the very hard blizzard ai, it was like FE and then keep making units to crush their push, and then take a 3rd, drone up a bit, and then make a bunch of units to kill the 2nd push or die...that was long time ago though.
Its A.I.,my mistake,beacuase in spanish is Inteligencia Artificial,but Ok.
You didnt understand what I was trying to say:before the queen buff its was not possible to beat VH AI,because your 6 Queens have to move to hit,but now you just stay and kill stuf and transfuse.The A.I. just send pushes from time to time and expanding after the second ne(12) mins.Its pretty and 1 base all in,so we can see it in action.Its even harder then players do,but they dont expand after pushes...
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On June 20 2012 17:09 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 17:08 NovemberstOrm wrote:
This happens after every patch where winrates swing in the favor of the buffed race, too early too tell still give it another 2 weeks or so. watch. even after 2 weeks people will say "nah it's still too early" or "gah stop complaining" as usual.
Or in the case of terran, "build more ravens".
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I think you are missing something here. The strength of terran army comes from micro. Just watch 4 slow lings or a single zealot tear apart 2 idle marines. I think top-level Korean terrans are still good enough to make trade with zerg well enough to kick 'em out of the GSL code S.
The problem lies within the nature of the buffs that Z's got. In a perfect world they would increase the micro potential of the zerg race, giving good players a tool to work with, not a ready solution. They needed to buff top tier zergs, instead they buffed them all across the board which was really uncalled for.
I can imagine zergs getting their behinds kicked in GSL code S and owning things up everywhere else alongside with their protoss brothers. And I think that sucks.
Also, I've read some retarded statements here like "no one cares about the weekly cups". Guess what: I do care about them, it's just they are not that much fun to watch anymore, now the best MUs have gone extinct in favor of the PvZ fest.
Well, at least HoTS is not that far away.
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The problem is when you give a slight buff to a race with an exponential economy, the results can be deadly.I've had a decent win rate vs zerg since I gave up trying to macro vs Zerg and just 1 base hellion banshee all in. I like QXC's bunker, just have to make sure that you are far enough back that a spine up top can't get you.
Also a ghost, with Mobius reactor of course requiring a ghost acadamy, all very expensive this early in the game, by the time it cross the map, it will have enough energy to snipe 1 queen (4 snipes). Now 200 minerals and 100 gas to snipe a 150 mineral unit that would of already put down creep and only requires a spawning pool? Bad deal.
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On June 20 2012 14:32 HolyArrow wrote:
I'm personally kind of tired of this "Terran can't beat Zerg unless they're a lot more skilled" rhetoric. I saw it before when Protoss was the focus of Terran complaints, and now I'm seeing it again. I wish Terrans would give more credit to their opponents. It sets a sour tone for what should be a productive discussion regarding balance. I'm a Toss player myself so I don't have much to add to the actual debate regarding the matchup, but I just wanted to point that out.
Back when Terrans were doing really well in Korea last year, a lot of people liked to say, "Welp, I guess Terran players are just more skilled". Now that Blizzard has tried to balance the game and things are harder for Terran, the mindset is that Terran players are still "more skilled", but the game is just ridiculously unfair and it takes a far more skilled Terran to beat a Zerg/Protoss. Bleh.
Not to get too off topic but Blizzard themselves have pretty much admitted that Terran requires a lot more mechanical effort than the other two races.
I agree completely with what Stalife said. The queen buff itself isn't terrible but other changes need to be made to accommodate it. And people need to stop telling Terrans to figure new stuff out. I'd argue that professional Terran players play the widest variety of styles at the top level and are all facing similar difficulties with the matchup. Even during the past couple months when Terran were on about Protoss, there were a few Terrans who still maintained that the matchup was playable. Right now there is a unified consensus that TvZ is imbalanced now where it wasn't a month ago.
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On June 20 2012 14:28 lavit2099 wrote:
Terrans aren't trying new things. They're doing the same builds now as they were months ago, against Z and P. It seems like with changes, the other two races try to adapt and do new things while Terrans are sitting back and trying to force the older things to work (complain about 2 hellions not giving you map control and creep denial, for instance).
I'm a big IMMvp fan, but I honestly think the only reason he won last season's GSL is because he is a better player with more experience. Taking the races out of the picture, he has the cutthroat attitude needed to perform well because it doesn't matter HOW you will, just that you win.
Artosis also said something on tonight's SotG that to me makes a lot of sense. People are bombarded with a billion tournaments so they're less inclined to think about evolving the metagame and instead worry about what builds can I use right NOW to let me win so I can take home more money.
Well there was a very long period where protoss do the same builds. Terrans have been the quickest to adapt...
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So instead of trying something new all terran has done is cry about the buff. I'm sorry that Terran can no longer dominate the early game and win with hellions or a marine push.
User was warned for this post
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On June 20 2012 17:16 docvoc wrote:
I think that this could be an important metagame shift. Dustin Browder stated that the win ration across the leagues isn't actually that significant and that it just seems bad for Terran, IDK if that is true because its only been 1 month, but still, I believe that we should let this sit for about 1 more month, if it continues, instead of nerfin queens they could bring back hellion BFH power, or terrans could rush ghosts to snipe the queens or EMP them, making them completely useless and destroy larvae production. Either way I agree with Stahlife.
You want to EMP Queens?They wont stay together and you must EMP every one of them,so you need at least 6 ghost to make what?Prevent a single ROUND of larva spawn?And if you do this, you need cloaked ghosts,with cloar research and moebius reactor.So,does it really pay off?An be sure you would lose the ghosts because of the overseers or spores.This is just impossible.
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That bunker trick looks neat, will try it on ladder.
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On June 20 2012 17:23 AkkiB wrote:
So instead of trying something new all terran has done is cry about the buff. I'm sorry that Terran can no longer dominate the early game and win with hellions or a marine push.
Troll
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On June 20 2012 17:23 AkkiB wrote:
So instead of trying something new all terran has done is cry about the buff. I'm sorry that Terran can no longer dominate the early game and win with hellions or a marine push.
You know Blizzard have said T have to dominate the early game to have a chance in the late game?
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EPT
