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Canada13389 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing.
Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference.
Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure.
On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9.
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that.
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
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EMP affects buildings right?
Might be fun to EMP Mothership core in teams games.
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On June 10 2012 10:40 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It can't be, it would shut down protoss until they get collossi AND the range upgrade, which is the only unit that hits ground at more than 6 range until TEMPEST. It seems a little much imo. 5 would make sense. Though with the warhound I am starting to wonder how stalkers will do. The cost of a warhound for its HP and the DPS against stalkers is huge, especially if missiles don't interrupt the regular attack. I think there will be changes for both OR a range upgrade for stalkers if the numbers posted here are all exact. then again thats what beta is for.
The mines aren't spell damage by the way, so by definition, Immortal's shields should activate.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories.
I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were 
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 09:55 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
At first I thought this was going to suck for terran... but now it's obvious that it's going to be amazing. Good mech units may solve the problem of lategame TvP. But TvZ lategame will be awful. Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too. How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun....... Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9. Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
They nerfed Neural Parasite because the Infestor had too much versatility with its other spells included.
Vipers are later tech, cost more gas, and are the only caster unit in the game apart from the new Oracle with no way to deal damage whatsoever. Blizz is not going to nerf the pull ability, I can almost guarantee it.
Colossi haven't been nerfed once since release either, no matter how much complaining the community has done in regards to it.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:58 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:44 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:41 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:36 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:31 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:27 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:24 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:23 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 10:14 Solo Terran wrote:
[quote]Why do people think the warhound will suddenly make mech viable in TvP? The whole reason Mech isn't used in WoL is because of how immobile mech is. I mean Seige Tanks have to bolt to the ground to shoot while Protoss now not only has a seige tank that can walk up and down cliffs they have one that can fly too.
How are you going to deal with Blink Stalkers, warp in and warp prisms warping units into your main and expansions destroying all of your production while you walk over to defend. Then they just recall when you get there. Sounds fun.......
Wait for it... ...and now suddenly everyone realizes what the Widow Mines are for. Yep just put widow mines literally everywhere thats the solution...... no. Why not? They can be unburrowed and redeployed if necessary, they're fast, can be reactored out of the factory with a low build time, cost only 1 supply each, and trade one-for-one with stalkers. I don't see a single problem with them. In the TvZ match-up they might whiff horribly on Zerglings, but against Protoss they will goddamn shine. The thing is mines will be nerfed until they are almost useless or taken out of the game. How is Protoss supposed to deal with mines right now? Wait for Collosus to out range them? Good question. Probably suicide Zealots until they can get detection up and then pick them off with Stalker/Immortals. I don't think the attach range is actually 6... It is 6 right now. Blizzard knew Terran players would complain after seeing all the units in HoTS so they just made the mine way over powered and showed us 10 of them taking out an entire Zerg army to try and keep Terran players quiet. But they probably won't even make it into the actual game. If they do make it the damage and range will get nerfed big time. The unit stat page says about 6, but I'm skeptical. Most people are bad at judging ranges by eye and we only saw the mines used sparingly in a single battle report. They also say Abduct is only range 7 but I can tell that is bullshit, it's at least 9. Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game. They nerfed Neural Parasite because the Infestor had too much versatility with its other spells included. Vipers are later tech, cost more gas, and are the only caster unit in the game apart from the new Oracle with no way to deal damage whatsoever. Blizz is not going to nerf the pull ability, I can almost guarantee it. Colossi haven't been nerfed once since release either, no matter how much complaining the community has done in regards to it.
Thats fair, but infestors are still in this game and they still have their old spells. They cost a lot of gas but viper pull nullifies units moreso than neural parasite ever did in its current incarnation. We already see gas intensive infestor/BL doing well, so its not a far stretch to think that vipers will be worked in somehow. Just saying they cost gas isn't really fair, We need to see how it plays out but as it is it is crazy strong just like so so many other things in the alpha build
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On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that.
The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively.
I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 10 2012 11:04 saltygrapes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that. The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively. I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production.
True, I will need to play the game to see how it works out but 22 range still seems HUGEEEEEEEE. lol. Even Browder and crew are iffy about its range.
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On June 10 2012 11:08 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:04 saltygrapes wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:
Considering they nerfed neural parasite to range 7 and the unit isn't being pulled but just taken over and it was considered too strong at range 9, I doubt a range 7 abduct by a flying unit will be kept in the game.
I as a protoss player would never make any collossus against vipers. Maybe MAYBE if I could 2 shot a viper with a tempest I MIGHT make some later on but it seems so strong. And the only reason they collossi weren't wrecked in the PvZ is because the zerg never focus fired them whenever they got pulled. Imagine 2 immortals being pulled out of your stalker army vs roaches on a heavy roach push. They get pulled, they get auto surrounded by the roaches they die super quick.
IDK, a lot of these things seem like they will need a lot of fine tuning but the IDEAS are very good. Tempest is a great idea, 22 range is a cool idea if not over done. In reality if it keeps super long range, it will be better than a siege tank but not 22. MAYBE 13/15 range. Not much more than that. The tempest's range is contested by the unit's ridiculous cost (300/300), the fact that the range is an upgrade that costs even more, lack of splash damage, and slow recharge time. It's not going to do much all at once but the P players will have to micro them pretty hard to position them properly, and then they'll have to use them to target fire important units. Siege tanks are cheaper, have fewer tech requirements, a cheaper upgrade, and have splash damage, which is why their range is fine comparatively. I like the Tempest, it's a great idea that will make both players micro their units very well and it has its strengths and weaknesses. I see 3-4 of them blasting away important units from long range in a fight being quite a valuable asset, especially considering you're already likely to have a Stargate for Oracle production. True, I will need to play the game to see how it works out but 22 range still seems HUGEEEEEEEE. lol. Even Browder and crew are iffy about its range.
i wonder why they picked 22 as its range, seems random
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On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats:
"The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds.
Damage: 60
Range: 13"
Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
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On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
But it's not splash, right?
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On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf....
PF is AOE and basically unkillable with repair which are its two main strengths that the core is missing. Will the core be good against the 1 dropship marine drops here and there? Sure, if it has energy to move and transform. Will it single handedly hold off drops? Only if toss doesnt mind losing all their probes in the meantime.
If I were to pick one thing that this will help with it would be mutas, not terran drops.
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On June 10 2012 11:32 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 11:28 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:55 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP. Recall takes time, you need a lot of energy to use it, AND the cannon is a better PF!? Ok friend, lets look at it this way, the core has an HP bar, the Nexus has an HP bar, and neither can be repaired. If you think thats a problem go ahead and complain but the choice would turn into cannon or recall? Wherever the toss army is you need to think if its worth recalling or not, the core can only be at one nexus at a time, the ability to move from nexus to nexus is limited and multiple prong drops and drops to kill tech won't be affected by the nexus much lets be honest here. You also won't be dropping much past the early mid game, you will be making mech units, from factories. I think recall is in the wrong spot. They should give a small AoE spell recall to the oracle and make it an arbiter instead of a huge AoE recall for the mocore. The lack of recall for protoss a la BW will slowly show how strong mech can really be but then again immortals may make it more "fair" as it were Oh recall takes time wow thats horrible, no one will use it now. The Cannon on the nexus is better than the PF look up the stats: "The Mship Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds. Damage: 60 Range: 13" Yeah thats a bit better than a pf.... But it's not splash, right?
Different take on a similar concept. You can say the MCore boosts all the macro abilities of Toss. Combining Energy Regen + Defence. It's like a merging of PF + OC, but not as specialized. On the other hand, it's much more versatile and Toss isn't locked into picking one type of building for one purpose.
The Mass Recall is a different thing entirely.
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I think the mass recall is a great idea. I can't count how many times that a protoss was moving out to pressure a bit, only to find out that the terran was also pressuring and consequently losing a basetrade scenario because of terran's cost efficiency (See Squirtle vs MVP).
I think that and the Mothership Core gives protoss a lot more flexibility in defending the early game especially in PvP, where I think expanding can be possible with the core able to teleport between nexi. Overall, I'm excited for these changes and I'm hoping to see how they pan out in the beta. I hope terrans aren't too discouraged, I think the Widow mine is a pretty cool idea and gives a lot more way to multi-tasking where a couple of widow mines can really mess up a whole army if you're not paying attention.
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I think people are overlooking the fact that the attack ability for the mothership core is temporary. It costs a huge 75 energy and only lasts 20 seconds. Energy regens at 0.5625 per second, so it takes 133 seconds to build up that much energy. And do you really think it will help against mutas? They will just fly away after taking 1 hit and then return after 20 seconds are up. That ability won't be used nearly as much as the Energize one. I mean 25 energy to bring any nearby unit/structure up to full energy? Just doing that on one HT would hold off a drop or mutas better than the energy cannon. I can't see the cannon ability ever being used in pro play, since they should always have a high templar near the nexus in the late game, and a sentry near it in the early game.
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On June 10 2012 09:45 Belha wrote:
- Hellion will become a stample in every match up with the battle mode. Raid unit, counter to melee stamples, map control and excelent production rate at a very cheap cost.
I don't see Hellions becoming anything more than a way to trade minerals for minerals in mech vs bio / a risky econ raider in TvT... so definitely not a matchup-defining unit for TvT.
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mothership core has a range of 13? not sure how i like it, takes away a bit of uniqueness from the tempest
but meh if they want protoss to have that long range feel, then sure why not, it makes sense lore-wise
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On June 10 2012 11:47 Fig wrote:
I think people are overlooking the fact that the attack ability for the mothership core is temporary. It costs a huge 75 energy and only lasts 20 seconds. Energy regens at 0.5625 per second, so it takes 133 seconds to build up that much energy. And do you really think it will help against mutas? They will just fly away after taking 1 hit and then return after 20 seconds are up. That ability won't be used nearly as much as the Energize one. I mean 25 energy to bring any nearby unit/structure up to full energy? Just doing that on one HT would hold off a drop or mutas better than the energy cannon. I can't see the cannon ability ever being used in pro play, since they should always have a high templar near the nexus in the late game, and a sentry near it in the early game.
I actually do think it will help with mutas. A huge part of dealing with mutas is reaction time. 20 sec is enough time to mobilize a defense force if you are caught off guard. Mutas also come way before most people have HT so unless energize makes rushing HT a standard I dont see your point in that regard.
Absolutely I believe energize is the star player of the mothership core, but I stand by the idea that if the cannon were to be used then muta play would be the most impacted (I think that if energize stays as it is they will rebalance the early game to force you to energize your nexus similar to how it is currently balanced to force chrono on the nexus if you want to stay in the game economically and this means no anti rush cannon without a build specifically for it).
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