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On June 10 2012 12:19 a176 wrote:
the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap?
It doesn't do bonus damage to armored, it shoots missiles at mechanical units. So a Marauder would do bonus damage to Roaches, Ultralisks, Swarm Hosts, Marauders and buildings (all of these armored, none of these mechanical) whereas Warhounds would deal bonus damage to Hellions (Mechanical, Light). Marauders are more mobile (Stim), Warhounds are less susceptible to aoe by having more concentrated HP. When facing chargelot / stalker, Marauders kite- Warhounds tank damage, shooting missiles at the stalkers while shooting lasers at the zealots (or maybe also shooting lasers at the stalkers if you micro them right); because of this they'd be better at protecting tanks and vikings from getting caught, as Bio armies typically run away all the time.
While there is definitely some overlap in terms of what units they're good against (especially in TvP), I think the Marauder and the Warhound are pretty distinct in terms of playstyle and the kind of army composition you're likely to find them in (Warhounds share upgrades with tanks and hellions, Marauders share upgrades with Marines).
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On June 10 2012 12:19 a176 wrote:
the more i think about the more i dont understand the warhound. armored, does plus damage to armored. its a maruader you build from a factory. what ever happened to no unit overlap?
It's a mechanical marauder that is bad vs Zerg.
They have this obsesion of breaking tank lines with 1 a units (auto target mechanical units? lol) A terrible unit IMO. Giving mech some better support then what thors can, is good, but making this unit, from design, bad against one race and super 1 a friendly is as lazy design as you can get.
I'm sure it will be fun to use, in the begining, but in time, it will be just as boring as the marauder.
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Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed!
Lackluster mine concept
The widow spider mine is nothing but a Baneling ... with a 10 second delay AND a bright orange countdown timer on top ... so you will not split your units only if you arent looking, don't care or just died in the middle of your game. Totally not worth the cost IMO. The only plus side of it is that it also attaches to flying units ... as to why I dont really know though, because that defies logic.
As if Forcefields werent bad enough ...
... now Zerg get a unit which enables them to handpick expensive units and drag them into the killing zone. Really bad concept IMO and although it seems fun to do it it totally neutralizes siege tank positions. At 200 gas you wont have that many of them, but if you are faced with the choice of building Broodlords OR Vipers you will have those Vipers much faster (even if you have to spend some time charging up first) and thus a tech switch isnt really necessary and you can just advance with Infestors + ground army and a few Vipers to pull those sieged tanks into a favorable position. Adding Dark Swar ... errr Blinding Cloud on top of it is just the icing on the cake and terrans are basically screwed if they go mech and screwed if they go bio against this.
I really hope they fix some of the obvious flaws in the design before the launch.
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On June 10 2012 20:09 Cirqueenflex wrote:
because they weren't in the videos:
a) is the roach still in the game?
b) have they abandoned the idea of burrow movement for banelings? (Since if it was a new feature in HotS, i would have imagined seeing it at least once in the show games)
Roaches are still in the game afaik, there was no mention of them being removed nor do i think there's a real reason to do so. Burrow movement for banelings was scrapped.
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Did they make the ultralisks smaller or are they the same size? Also the warhounds are not going to be like a goliath-like unit?
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Nice, these units look pretty cool. Thanks to the OP for the post. All of this makes me wonder what the game will look like after Legacy of the Void. Maybe they'll bring Carriers back in that. xD
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On June 10 2012 19:17 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 17:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote:
How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran. Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size. Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3. For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O Isn't size irrelevant? 1 supply = 8 fit in a medivac (marines, reapers, scvs, mines!) 2 supply = 4 fit in a medivac (ghosts, hellions, vikings, marauders, warhounds) 3 supply = 2 fit in a medivac (tanks) 6 supply = 1 fits in a medivac (thor) 4 warhounds fit in a medivac I'll state with some degree of confidence
Banelings are 0,5 Supply and take up 2 spots (like Roach, Marauder, Zealot,...)
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On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy.
Widow Mines don't target timed-life units.
Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed!
Quit whining, Feedback is a good spell and there's no reason to change it. Unless I'm mistaken, the Thors in the TvZ Battle Report didn't have energy, it may have been removed for HotS. Also BCs now have Redline Reactor to burn off excess energy while advancing faster to the frontlines, which should make them less susceptible.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Lackluster mine concept
The widow spider mine is nothing but a Baneling ... with a 10 second delay AND a bright orange countdown timer on top ... so you will not split your units only if you arent looking, don't care or just died in the middle of your game. Totally not worth the cost IMO. The only plus side of it is that it also attaches to flying units ... as to why I dont really know though, because that defies logic.
The art on the Widow Mines isn't final, they're using spider mines as a placeholder. The final model should look more like something capable of firing or projecting itself over a good distance, which justifies targeting air units just fine.
It's also quite different from Banelings and increases micro potential in battles for all sides, as well as giving Terran cheap and powerful static board control. They are more than worth the cost if utilized correctly as they are ALWAYS guaranteed a kill after attaching except against the very toughest units, and they're worth less than anything bar basic combat units, workers and banes.
On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
As if Forcefields werent bad enough ...
... now Zerg get a unit which enables them to handpick expensive units and drag them into the killing zone. Really bad concept IMO and although it seems fun to do it it totally neutralizes siege tank positions. At 200 gas you wont have that many of them, but if you are faced with the choice of building Broodlords OR Vipers you will have those Vipers much faster (even if you have to spend some time charging up first) and thus a tech switch isnt really necessary and you can just advance with Infestors + ground army and a few Vipers to pull those sieged tanks into a favorable position. Adding Dark Swar ... errr Blinding Cloud on top of it is just the icing on the cake and terrans are basically screwed if they go mech and screwed if they go bio against this.
I really hope they fix some of the obvious flaws in the design before the launch.
The Viper spells are in almost no way comparable to Force Field. Blinding Cloud doesn't hinder unit movement or control whatsoever - it encourages micro rather than prevents it, so it's a very welcome addition to the game from any viewpoint. Abduct is more akin to Snipe than anything else, it's our way of picking off single, powerful units from a distance but with a very Zergy flavor. Vipers are expensive and vulnerable to both Vikings and Ghosts which are both available long before Hive tech so seriously just stop your bitching.
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Hmm, I wonder how window mines will do against drops in TvT. On maps with little airspace, you can probably put one down in likely medivac path and you'll either kill the whole drop, or at least turn the drop away.
Edit: Also, if mothership core can be neuraled, you can sneak an infestor, recall in and then escape with nydus, which would be sooo awesome
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Just FYI everyone, reapers in HOTS have 5 range (I was at the event yesterday). I think OP simply saw the 7 damage number and wrote that down by accident.
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On June 11 2012 01:03 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 19:17 Ktk wrote:On June 10 2012 17:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 10 2012 17:13 Sea_Food wrote:
How much cargo space is one warhound?
Probes and SCV are mechanical, I want to see warhound drops vs protoss and terran. Wow, that would be interesting! I'm guessing warhound takes 4 spaces out of 8 though. 2 would seem weird for a unit that size. Hm so they could 2 shot SCVs! I wonder if that's part of the reason why they do 23 damage, it's perfectly 46 damage, and getting +1 armor doesn't change that from 2 shots to 3. For mechanical missiles... lol that would be epic. Maybe it doesn't target workers though ;O Isn't size irrelevant? 1 supply = 8 fit in a medivac (marines, reapers, scvs, mines!) 2 supply = 4 fit in a medivac (ghosts, hellions, vikings, marauders, warhounds) 3 supply = 2 fit in a medivac (tanks) 6 supply = 1 fits in a medivac (thor) 4 warhounds fit in a medivac I'll state with some degree of confidence Banelings are 0,5 Supply and take up 2 spots (like Roach, Marauder, Zealot,...)
@Ktk I didn't notice that, but yeah banelings and reapers are an exception. Then again you can fit 4 vikings in a medivac, so who knows :D (Vikings are pretty big xD)
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Swarm Hosts = Siege tanks with cloak ... at least the Lurker had a limited range and didnt create "free hit points" (the interceptors for a Carrier have to be bought with minerals).
Oracle = "negative Mule" (but much more of a pain)
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I really want to be able to Neural a Probe to get my hands on a Mothership Core energy max button for transfuse/fungals. Forward Nexus supporting Zerg push would be so strong, shame about how rare I imagine it'd be to get that probe though. Might be a little easier with abduct to grab a proxy pyloning probe though I guess.
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On June 11 2012 02:56 Rabiator wrote:
Swarm Hosts = Siege tanks with cloak without splash damage and do zero damage if you have anough firepower... at least the Lurker had a limited range and AoE and no huge pauses between attacks and did damage relevant to micro, not to firepower of opponent and didnt create "free hit points" (the interceptors for a Carrier have to be bought with minerals).
Oracle = "negative Mule" (but much more of a pain) with free scan for two full minutes plus cloaking your units
fixed that for you
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lurk have the WOW moment, swarm host no, just for this the lurker is much better
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On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them.
Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers.
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On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers.
Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse.
Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out?
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I wonder if they know this... But to make mech viable in tvp, they just simpyl have to add spider mines and higher DPS tanks vs shields (so it doesn't affect TvZ althought TvZ is completely imbalanced right now)
Btw, i feel like I always have to say this, but not terran player, Master P player.
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drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets.
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On June 11 2012 05:16 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I wonder if they know this... But to make mech viable in tvp, they just simpyl have to add spider mines and higher DPS tanks vs shields (so it doesn't affect TvZ althought TvZ is completely imbalanced right now)
Btw, i feel like I always have to say this, but not terran player, Master P player.
What mech needed was a low cost "beefy" non-hellion unit whose upgrades also improve the actual "important" mech units.
Right now the choices a mech player has in TvP is build up a high tank count, build up mass thors, build up a high hellion count.
Now the hellion count is important just for harassment and a mineral sink (big problem for Mech play)
Tanks are too specialized and Thors produce too slowly.
So Blizzard gave terran a unit whose "anti-mech" attack is attached to a cooldown instead of into its attack to allow them to tweak its power vs mech without breaking its autoattack vs non-mechs.
Would mines have helped? Yup, mines would. (Although allowing mass hellions in TvZ that can't be stopped by roaches just because Hellion/spidermine would counter roaches would suck)
Would higher DPS tanks have helped? Yup, it would have also break TvZ as well.
Would a unit that doesn't replace the maruader but allows mech play to have a beefy front line unit to protect the more fragile/expensive mech units while also allowing mech to work better without hurting the TvZ matchup work as well? Yes.
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EPT
