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All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
Welecom to the current T feeling of TvP \o/
On a more serious note: This is allowing mech army to not build Bunkers PF and turrets all across the map, and not get caught out of position easily. Don't think it's OP, like banelings, you can't win with them really easily, although i'm already thinking of some kinds of "Widow-Mines Bust" All-in. But it allow us to defend against Big Toss bust while going mech.
You have to think that mech greatest weakness is resplenish army, having Widow mines allow us to play safe, but in the same way it's not great in a frontal fight, especially against full grown Toss Army.
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Wow, wrong thread... well, might as well make this post useful.
I feel like Zerg and Terran got some units that are really good CORE units, the Tempest is nice, the Oracle is cool, but Protoss is still going to have the issues it still has, and I would have really liked to see some changes that allowed some more potent micro, or something that let small groups of Protoss units be more effective to help discourage the deathball style.
Tempest... long range, yeah, neat, but that damage is just so low, and with how fast battles tend to go, I really don't see them being very good in head to head battles. As long as people aren't letting Observers settle in above their armies, I don't see the Tempest being particularly effective at... anything, really.
The Mothership Core is what I love to see though, those abilities impact Protoss play SO heavily without being new units, which I always like to see.
I dunno, I had hoped that something would be added to make the Protoss units more like Terran units in that they could function better in small groups compared to massive balls o' death.
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On June 11 2012 06:46 lschiss16 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stalkerhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Immortalhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_RayAccording to Liquipedia, stalkers, immortals, and voids have range of 6. Any T who burrows in front of cannons deserves to lose them, same goes for mothership core. I am more concerned with T just littering attack path, so cannons and mothership core would be ineffective. Suggesting using storms to kill mines is ridiculous, and also places your temps out of position. Tempest and coli are effective, but you have to wait for range for coli, and tempest cost 300, 300 for a 75, 25 unit, and must be continually microed to kill mines. I understand that as a defensive unit they are supposed to cause more actions, but it is totally imbalanced now. Lets say I move out with my army, and I spot mines. I have to pull my coli out, move my obs into position, but not too close or I will lose it. T can then snipe coli with vikings/stim. If I move forward w/stalkers I risk mines.
An armoury requirement could balance it out.
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On June 11 2012 06:26 cablesc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:13 SmileZerg wrote:On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers. Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse. Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out? Do you know anything about the widow mines targeting. Does it prioritize targets or does it just go for the closest unit. And what about manually targeting. Is that possible? I personally think the widow mines are the most promising new Terran unit, especially if they give it some kind of priority targeting.
I'm not sure how priority works on the mines, but I have been told you can manually target with them.
I agree that they seem to be the most promising new unit for Terran. They should create some interesting dynamics in every matchup.
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On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote:
Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job!
And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's sortive like a thor but it can not shoot air units like the thor so it's not as effective and looks overpriced
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Warhounds overpriced? What? Their basic stats all around are some of the most cost-efficient in the game, and they're only 2 supply!
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Flash said it. Toss/Zergs get all the units, Terrans only get widow mine.
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On June 11 2012 06:31 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote:
I am sorry I have to say that, but...
Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good. imo swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control I prefer the swarm host.
But the straight line attack of the lurker makes microing against their attack more entertaining.
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On June 11 2012 08:11 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:31 Roblin wrote:On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote:
I am sorry I have to say that, but...
Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good. imo swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control I prefer the swarm host. But the straight line attack of the lurker makes microing against their attack more entertaining.
True, but kiting Locusts and focus firing non-Locusts behind them is still skill intensive.
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OP update the information please.
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Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
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On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote:
Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
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As a Protoss I must say that I am VERY excited about the potential Mothership Core/Oracle usage. To me I don't see this as a harass unit, I see it as such a powerful defensive weapon. Think about this Scenario in PvZ:
Protoss goes Forge Fast Expand but taking an early gas to get the Mothership Core up. Proceeds as normal until the point where you get your four gasses running, at which point you drop Double Stargate. Make a fair number of Oracles and charge their energy to max with the Mothership Core (You'd still be making an early Sentry for defense). Then they run over to the Zerg and use Preordain on a bunch of their buildings. You'll be able to see EXACTLY what the Zerg is up to and whether they are going to be attacking you or not. If they look like they're going to be aggressive you can bring the Oracles back and cloak your units. If you had a couple of Phoenixes you could quite probably snipe any potential Overseers that they bring with their army. If they're being passive, then you start dropping Entombs... Even if it does a tiny small amount of "damage", you're going to be playing greedy too because you know that he can't attack you right now without you knowing about it.
This unit just really excites me and I have a lurking suspicion that it will definitely be a unit that will undergo a LOT of balance scrutiny if it's released as is. The interaction between these units is just incredible and if would completely change the way that Protoss is played. I think the Preordain ability may be the most powerful ability on that unit. Seeing everything in your opponent's base for 2 minutes? At the cost of Energy? Hell yeah! Eventually they'd get some air defense or something to try and shake off the Oracles but still, this unit just really excites me... Close second being Mothership Core. The ability to make a single Sentry and be SUPER safe (you'll have 4 forcefields that you can recharge super quickly). Protoss is going to be a defensive powerhouse.
The Tempest I think will have to be changed. Because I can easily see in PvZ a Protoss having a bunch of Sentries in the lategame at full energy. If you can build up a sizeable fleet of Tempests, you could use hallucinate to shoot stuff from crazy long range.
As a Protoss I'm biased and I know that, but this seems extremely powerful. I'm absolutely positive that some of these abilities are going to be toned down or removed. So for everyone who might be crying about balance, I wouldn't sweat it because this was a "press release". They wanted to get us all excited about the possibilities in Heart of the Swarm, and there's a little something for each race. I'm sure they're going to tone down and figure out how to balance the units correctly. It wasn't perfect for the WoL release, but they had absolutely little "real game" data to work off of. Now they understand how a lot of the things have been balanced in WoL and for what reason, which will help them make faster and better decisions in the future. So again, I wouldn't sweat it because I'm sure they're going to tone some stuff down.
But God I hope they don't.
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On June 11 2012 08:52 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote:
Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool ! I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
According to the OP, that was a mistake.
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On June 11 2012 08:44 Cosmos wrote:
Warhound will be cool for tvt, i'm sad they removed the air attack and let the so boring thor in the game. Tempest seems terribly bad... The reaper is still totally useless (queen outranges it). The rest is cool !
I thought new reaper is range 7, and the queen retains range 5?
No that was a mistake the reaper range is 5
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Speaking of mistakes regarding range, I just realized I've been right about 6 on Widow Mines being too much this whole time.
The TvZ battle report shows their attach radius at the beginning when the first couple mines are deployed, duh. Can't believe I missed that so many times. It's obviously radius 4, which was the same as the Shredder so it makes sense.
Balance prevails.
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at the moment Protoss has no micro intensive units, which makes it hard for players to evolve out of a-move win styles. Abit dissapointing that no new units/changes have been introduced to evolve this
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On June 09 2012 18:36 Garmer wrote:
overseer can't do shit to widow mine, they have 6 RANGE ATTACHMENT, you need a siege units to take them out safely, even if they are revealed
Or a hero roach that gets like 20 of them attached to him.
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That's it, I'm switching to toss.
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EPT
