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On June 11 2012 05:31 FeyFey wrote:
drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets.
They get sniped by Spawning pools and hatcheries every damn game though.
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On June 11 2012 05:31 FeyFey wrote:
drones are even more imba now, only worker that won't get hit by warhound rockets.
Probes are the only workers that don't take extra Archon damage, I believe.
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On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed!
IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro?
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Tanks seriously need a buff now.
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On June 10 2012 10:47 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 10:45 ZeromuS wrote:On June 10 2012 10:38 Velocirapture wrote:On June 10 2012 06:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 10 2012 05:59 Masvidal wrote:
Protoss really got shafted - Zerg and Terran both got quite a few new, very powerful units, and the Hydralisk is basically a new unit for Zerg because of the speed, while Protoss gets a flying caster and an overpriced single-target seige air unit. Even once everything is balanced out, I feel like P is going to be really stale and limited for options, what with all the new units the other races are getting. Things that really stick out in my mind: Widow Mines, Viper. These two units will need to be SERIOUSLY overhauled in no subtle way before they become anything but completely overpowered. And I can't believe that Abduct is able to be used on massive units. If you can use abduct on Colossus, you might as well allow Phoenix to use Graviton Beam on Thors and Ultralisks. I am aware that all of this will be balanced/changed, but I don't see how they can change things like Widow Mine, Viper, and Swarm Host to make them balanced without completely changing their function altogether. Swarm Host is basically a burrowed Broodlord. They need to make it so Widow Mines have like 20 hp or something, so that with detection they can be cleared out easily, because with the cheap cost and 200 damage, it's way, way too cost efficient.
The Tempest, I have to agree with the OP - it seems pretty useless. Yes, it has great range, but it's Fleet beacon tech, and costs 300/300, and can only hit one thing at a time. By the time one is out, Zerg has access to corruptors and Terran has access to Vikings, which basically makes it obsolete before it even comes out. It needs either a cost reduction or splash damage. I hope Blizzard knows what they are doing better than they did last time around - when WoL came out, it took 2 years and god knows how many patches before every single tournament stopped being TvT finals, and top 8 looking something like 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs, 0 Protoss. You have to be kidding me. Protoss got shafted? I think Protoss got the biggest buff of the 3 races! So much so, that I'm going to switch from Terran to Protoss as soon as HOTS comes out (though this obviously depends on the changes that happen between now and release.) Sure, I can maybe see why you don't like the Tempest. It's going to be a very micro intensive, situation specific unit. However, it's certainly going to be more useful than the carrier, which was never worth the money for building it at all. Other than the Tempest though, everything else Protoss just got is amazing. The mothership core is going to make FE in PvP 100% viable - try 4gating when I have a nexus that does 60 damage a shot! Or when I can just FF your units away almost unlimitlessly with sentries that keep on being recharged! PvZ just got a huge buff... you mean I can move out against a Zerg player with an immortal/sentry push and, if it doesn't work, I can just recall before a million lings kill off my units for free? That's amazing! In every matchup, the oracle is going to play a huge key part. Sure, it can harass with entomb, which is absolutely going to do damage. Think about recharging your oracle with mana from mothership core, then rushing across the map to completely shut down mining on both the nat and the main? And then return to your base, recharge, and cloak your 2 base timing push as you move out? Tell me that's not strong. The one thing that many Protoss players will complain about now is that colos can be abducted, that zealots can be killed by battle hellions, that the death ball is going to be broken up. But if you realize what HOTS is doing here, you'll notice that Protoss can now be flexible and DOESN'T DEPEND ON the deathball anymore. HOTS will change the game to be very very similar to BW - battles will be long and drawn out (as spellcasters/positional units/more defenders advantage have been added to every race, especially so to protoss), there will be many more micro intensive units (toss gets oracle+tempest here, which both are very effective but depend on micro) and as a result the deathball vs. deathball style play is going to fall out of style rapidly. Due to this fact, the colossus will play a different role in this game. Don't stress too much about the colossus - you'll now have many more options for punishing your opponent than simply abusing the traditional a-move noob unit. The only race that's going to get shafted here is Terran - and that's because the other two races were shafted in WoL. Mark my words, you're going to enjoy playing Protoss and Zerg a lot more in HOTS - so much in fact that I'm inclined to switch races in order to get the most out of the new game. I can't wait to play Toss in a few months :D I think the mothership core is super gimmicky and impossible to balance so it will be nerfed to nothing or changed A LOT. From the numbers posted it is clear that energy is going to be an extremely precious commodity for the core. Frankly, 90% of the time I think the energy restore will be its primary use and the cannon will be a desperation move. Blizzard is trying to sell us on the emergency recall bet at a whopping 150 energy cost I think only beginners will ever accumulate enough energy. So the question is, what does a bunch of extra energy mean for toss? Likely tons of nerfs Im guessing. Not necessarily, I mean the cannon will help a LOT in PvP with regards to earlier pushes on a nexus though a lot of those all ins are being more and more figured out as it is. The Tempest will definitely help deal with Collossus wars with 22 range even one or two of them will make a huge difference. Even if you go out with a 2 base timing and recall, if you dont do a lot of damage Zerg is done for. In the late game when recall would be more useful it will cost less energy on a mothership that can move. The decision of core vs ship will be important as well I am sure. So Terran gets a drop in the Protoss base. Welp now I just make my nexus a PF with more range and then warp in units. How are drops supposed to do anything in HoTS with the cannon ability? Not to mention recall which will break TvP.
You Emp the core, no recall. if its low on energy you can then nuke it to kill it. yeah emp work on buildings, recall cost 150 energy, max possible energy after an emp is 100.
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The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical?
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On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro?
Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
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I am sorry I have to say that, but...
Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good.
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On June 11 2012 06:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical?
Yes
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On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate?
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thanks very much for this OP, it answered a lot of the little questions i was asking myself while watching the battle reports from MLG!
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On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO.
A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback.
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On June 11 2012 05:13 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 04:57 cablesc wrote:On June 11 2012 02:24 SmileZerg wrote:On June 10 2012 20:12 Jackbo wrote:On June 09 2012 18:44 Bair wrote:On June 09 2012 18:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
Seems like adding some warhounds in early/mid game bio TvP is a good idea (until upgrades make marauders better). I mean, look at the fucking DPS against normal units (zealots). It's even better than marauders vs stalkers. It's also heavier on gas, so you may want to build some warhounds if you have too much. Maybe you could even add them in late game to get rid of some gas. They're pretty fast as well. It's got 7 range too, not 6! It's also got a lot more HP.
Wow 6 range is interesting on spider mine... so can you shoot them down like dragoons vs spidermines in BW? Or are they much faster now (seems like it)? Does this mean that they really need colossi or some other unit to clear out these mines? (Wow if so, that he can't run/blink stalkers around with an observer to clear mines, then these mines are gonna be awesome!) 2 quick points. The warhound's haywire missiles is 1 attack of 30 damage which I believe bypasses armor (making mental note to check that tomorrow). And the attachment time for widow mines is instant, so you need a higher range unit or a sacrificial unit. Given the MShip Core I could see hallucinated phoenix as being wonderful for clearing mines (assuming they attack hallucination, mental note 2). If you know the location of a mine field, you can hallucinate probes to take it out. It would be very efficient, seeing as you get 4 probes per hallucination, and each one could take a widow mine, which would make it 300/100 worth of minerals and gas destroyed for the cost of 100 energy. Widow Mines don't target timed-life units. Changelings, Locusts, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations, Broodlings, MULEs, and Point Defense Drones (or are those technically structures anyway?) won't trip them. Wow. That makes them a lot stronger. That means that the only units that trades well one for one vs a widow mine are zerglings, marines and workers. Ironically, banelings are the best to sweep mines with in the right situation, since they're going to die anyways. Just have to time it carefully. Roaches are fine too, though in the short run you lose out on supply. Could also tank it with Ultralisks and then transfuse. Zealots can get the job done for protoss if you don't mind saccing some extra minerals for gas units. Also it remains to be seen if Immortals hardened shields can tank them. Archons can do that as well. Another trick which I'm not sure is possible might be casting forcefield directly over the mines, maybe that prevents them from jumping out?
Do you know anything about the widow mines targeting. Does it prioritize targets or does it just go for the closest unit. And what about manually targeting. Is that possible?
I personally think the widow mines are the most promising new Terran unit, especially if they give it some kind of priority targeting.
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On June 11 2012 06:19 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Warhound's normal attack is 23 against everything? And only the special auto micro thing is anti mechanical? Yes
TY!
Then it's a bit less one dimensional then i originaly thought, wish there was a battle report to show them.
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Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
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On June 11 2012 06:17 Lixo wrote:
I am sorry I have to say that, but...
Just give us back lurkers, those swarm hosts are just not as good.
imo
swarm hosts way outdo lurkers in offense, siege and army support, only slightly worse than lurkers in space control
I prefer the swarm host.
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I am excited to watch TvZ matches now with all the new units involved in Heart of the Swarm. As of now , as a protoss player , I do not enjoy watching terran vs zerg. I love the addition of the widow mine. I was actually saying I hope they bring back the spider mine a few weeks ago. It will definitely make matches more exciting with the widow mine and a lot more annoying for protoss but I think it will be a great addition to the game.
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On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T.
1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit
2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
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On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stalker
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Immortal
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray
According to Liquipedia, stalkers, immortals, and voids have range of 6. Any T who burrows in front of cannons deserves to lose them, same goes for mothership core. I am more concerned with T just littering attack path, so cannons and mothership core would be ineffective. Suggesting using storms to kill mines is ridiculous, and also places your temps out of position. Tempest and coli are effective, but you have to wait for range for coli, and tempest cost 300, 300 for a 75, 25 unit, and must be continually microed to kill mines. I understand that as a defensive unit they are supposed to cause more actions, but it is totally imbalanced now. Lets say I move out with my army, and I spot mines. I have to pull my coli out, move my obs into position, but not too close or I will lose it. T can then snipe coli with vikings/stim. If I move forward w/stalkers I risk mines.
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On June 11 2012 06:39 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:28 lschiss16 wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the widow mine as extremely OP? As Protoss, I see no easy way to deal with them. Unless I use probes, it will always be cost efficient for Terran (arguable with zealots). To make it even more cost efficient, realize that they are trading a 1 supply unit for a 2 supply unit (unless you use probes). According to the post, they can also attach to obs, so if you mis-micro while mine-sweeping, you lose your obs and wait for another. Also, the only way to clear them is to use a 6+ range unit, such as the colossus, which potentially puts your colossus way out of position. And another thing to note is that the T just has to put them somewhere while the P is not looking. P, on the other hand, has to be constantly watching his army. All of this leads to an incredible amount of micro required from P, and very little from T. 1. forcing more actions to get rid of than to use: typical defensive unit 2. stalkers (7), immortals (7), colossus (6/9), voidray(7/9 I think?), high templar (storm, 9), cannon (7), Mship core (13) and tempest(10/22) all have higher than 6 range.
The only Protoss units which have an attack greater than 6 range are the upgraded colossus and the carrier. In Heart of the swarm this list will include the tempest.
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EPT
