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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 14:11 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 13:33 figq wrote:The "precog" case really gets me. Replay here: http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sightWatch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. It's strange for sure, but if you follow his camera and base everything on that you'll miss some fine details. What I'm referring to is the fact that moving across the map by means of e.g. double-clicking a hotkey or using a screen hotkey takes you there instantly while playing. When following his camera in the replay it takes you a little while to get there. During that split second (it might be 0.5 seconds at most, but I haven't tried measuring) he did have vision of all 6 eggs at the natural before moving his hellions back. Now I agree, it's still weird of him to say what he does. But he could have noticed the eggs and then tries to poke GoldenLight with his comment, to see if he gets any valuable information. And sorry for everyone who gets angry when anyone tries to defend Spades. I am rather certain that Spades has been hacking, but I won't stay silent when I see a possible explanation in his favor. Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous.
Yes. It would be one thing if three games in a row he didn't pay close attention to the scv, that's just standard bad play....but to send it in and yet never once, even later in the game, pan over the game to see what it saw? It's just too shady.
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On June 07 2012 15:46 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:43 kineSiS- wrote:On June 07 2012 15:36 StarStrider wrote:On June 07 2012 14:38 kineSiS- wrote:
Honestly, I wasn't even directing my words at choice people. Can everyone, including me I suppose, be proud of the fact that they've posted in this thread overall contributing to the detriment of Spades career. Any defense at this point is futile even if it makes an impact.
Right now it seems highly unlikely that he wasn't hacking. But is that absolute/ can't be questioned concrete yet? No. I'm not proud of my contribution in helping examine evidence that ruined his career yet. But when the evidence keeps piling up and it seems more and more unlikely that these suspicions are all just a random set of coincidences, and we reach the point where not many are left that could still believe he didn't hack, then yes I will be proud if I had a part to play in exposing him, because hackers disgust me, they ruin the fair competition of this game I hold so dear, the competition is everything and if someone is falsely getting ahead by a means other than skill I will be proud til the end of my days to bury his career into the ground. Not saying I know yet that he did it, but based on the extensive studying of the pretty huge amount of evidence I have done I'm already pretty far beyond a reasonable doubt in my own mind, as I have not been shown enough reasonable doubts in comparison to the number of incidences of shadiness. As Drewbie said, there is no irreperable damage being done here. If Spades were uncannily able to explain every bit of his weird incidents in an undeniably logical way or reproduce on his stream the kind of actions he claims to have made in that series in a comfortable way like he's done it before......if his name was cleared....people would flock to the martyr'd soul like groupies. His name is already 10x more recognized than it ever was and if he were proved to be innocent there is no way people would hold the witch hunt against the innocent victim. They would support him and probably even apologize. Not hating on Drewbie, but progamers aren't know for their intelligence but rather their game playing ability. I highly disagree. I'm glad that we came to a standstill, but the fact is, there is irreparable damage being done here. Because HE CAN'T explain everything he did. And even if he did, his word is as good as dirt after being condemned and put to the cross but dozens of players. Once people make up their mind, their mind is made. Have you seen what's happened? He's been kicked off a team for Christ's sake. People, even ex-hackers, deserve better than this. Why do you think there are so many rights to alleged criminals in our legal system. Everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves, even those you consider scum. Didn't he leave his own team? Besides, the thing that made everyone really suspicious was the lack of a defense coming from Spades..
I don't know that you were around for this, but during the first season of NASL, everyone was shitting on InControl. And when InControl left NASL, everyone was accusing InControl of bailing; and that it was a sign that the NASL was failing and corrupt (like GosuCoaching!), that they weren't going to pay out their prize money are stealing from players, that everything InControl touches turns to shit, etc.
InControl barely responded to these accusations. When there are a million voices shouting over you, it gets exhausting trying to shout back.
TLDR; not actively defending yourself is not an admission of guilt.
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been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
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On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense?
No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons.
Independend pro gamers how ever can.
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On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
If you had looked at any shred of the evidence you'll see that he is purported to have used hacks to gain advantages in qualifiers and showmatches....infinitely more dire accusations than just using them to gain rank and maintain an incredibly high win rate.
His MLG performance should not be used to judge these incidents in either direction.
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On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
Yeah who cares right? It's not like sponsors and money and teams and invites are on the line. We're just all giant pricks.
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On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
Hacking on ladder doesn't matter? I'll just leave this here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342704
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On June 07 2012 15:58 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons. Independend pro gamers how ever can.
Alright, let me try again.
"Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go because we believe he is a hacker, and here's the evidence we have."
"Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go. Although we don't believe he is a hacker, everyone else does."
The first response is reasonable. Team Liquid is firing a player based on their own standards. It's within their rights.
The second response is depressing, and result of caving to public pressure and opinion. The quality or strength of the evidence/argument is irrelevant.
Another, more recent example is when EG fired Orb. EG Alex did not fire Orb because people found his behaviour offensive. Alex fired Orb because, coincidentally, he had an undergrad in Black Studies and ulitmately HE found Orb's behaviour offensive and didn't want him on his payroll.
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On June 07 2012 16:07 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer Yeah who cares right? It's not like sponsors and money and teams and invites are on the line. We're just all giant pricks.
calm down and stop the drama. Spades career is on the line but besides that nothing will happen with sc2. map hackers existed before spades and will keep existing after spades.
This thread has gone out of line and is more like a jerry springer show right now.
I don't know what people expect out of this thread after 5000 posts.
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On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
LOL
You do realize he cheated in a SHOWMATCH and his LADDER games (from his replay pack) are actually the ones where he's supposedly 'clean.' Just do yourself a favor and stop posting rofl.
and yes, people do care if he hacks on ladder.
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On June 07 2012 16:10 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:58 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons. Independend pro gamers how ever can. Alright, let me try again. "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go because we believe he is a hacker, and here's the evidence we have." "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go. Although we don't believe he is a hacker, everyone else does." The first response is reasonable. Team Liquid is firing a player based on their own standards. It's within their rights. The second response is depressing, and result of caving to public pressure and opinion. The quality or strength of the evidence/argument is irrelevant. Another, more recent example is when EG fired Orb. EG Alex did not fire Orb because people found his behaviour offensive. Alex fired Orb because, coincidentally, he had an undergrad in Black Studies and ulitmately HE found Orb's behaviour offensive and didn't want him on his payroll.
First... Alex did fire orb because of the community, he did not fire Idra and that is proof enough.
You are trying to compare apples with oranges here,
The orb situation was a PROVEN thing, and EG had to let him go due to community backlash even tho they themselves were reasonable enough to allow him stay even tho he said niger no ladder 1 year ago.
The community was immature, or "offended" as some refer to it, and thus orb had to be fired since it might have hurt the EG brand.
Spades maphacking isn't a PROVEN issue, its quite obvious but not PROVEN, however the community as a whole can agree that cheating in a showmatch/qualifier is a bad thing and should be acted upon by the team even if its "just that one time", the problem here is that we are not sure if he was hacking or not, not arguing the "morals" of hacking.
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On June 07 2012 15:58 iwearcapes wrote:
been in teamliquid since before TSL 1 was even announced.. and all i can say is i never have seen this much drama on team liquid before . its like teamliquid filled up with pricks who have nothing els todo but try and bash other players "zomg he hacks on LADDER" ... do you friends even realize that ladder ACTUALLY doesnt mean anything in competitive play?
If you're going to mlg you cant get away with hacking, so its all fair. who cares about ladder? honestly you could be 1#gm and get your shit pushed in at events. (not trying to make him seem like a bad player) but osjigy i forgot how to spell his name was #1 in gm and went into a tournament group and went 1-3 with beatable players
anyways too late now spades is probably fucked for sc2 careeer
He also made it to pool play at an mlg.
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On June 07 2012 16:23 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:10 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:58 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons. Independend pro gamers how ever can. Alright, let me try again. "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go because we believe he is a hacker, and here's the evidence we have." "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go. Although we don't believe he is a hacker, everyone else does." The first response is reasonable. Team Liquid is firing a player based on their own standards. It's within their rights. The second response is depressing, and result of caving to public pressure and opinion. The quality or strength of the evidence/argument is irrelevant. Another, more recent example is when EG fired Orb. EG Alex did not fire Orb because people found his behaviour offensive. Alex fired Orb because, coincidentally, he had an undergrad in Black Studies and ulitmately HE found Orb's behaviour offensive and didn't want him on his payroll. First... Alex did fire orb because of the community, he did not fire Idra and that is proof enough. You are trying to compare apples with oranges here, The orb situation was a PROVEN thing, and EG had to let him go due to community backlash even tho they themselves were reasonable enough to allow him stay even tho he said niger no ladder 1 year ago. The community was immature, or "offended" as some refer to it, and thus orb had to be fired since it might have hurt the EG brand. Spades maphacking isn't a PROVEN issue, its quite obvious but not PROVEN, however the community as a whole can agree that cheating in a showmatch/qualifier is a bad thing and should be acted upon by the team even if its "just that one time", the problem here is that we are not sure if he was hacking or not, not arguing the "morals" of hacking.
The relieving/resigning of Spades from WW happened about 200 pages ago. I am inclined to believe that the team leader didn't decide he was over and done without first having a long convo with Spades and also look at all the evidence for himself. I find it hard to believe that he would be naive enough to get rid of him based on the reaction of the community to accusation and a hunch that it must all be true.
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On June 07 2012 14:43 McFeser wrote:
that he went from low masters to 1#GM in the blink of unstreamed eye
Where's the part about him being GM and placing top 32 multiple times in MLG before dropping down to Masters in his poker and CS phase?
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On June 07 2012 16:28 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:23 Aterons_toss wrote:On June 07 2012 16:10 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:58 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons. Independend pro gamers how ever can. Alright, let me try again. "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go because we believe he is a hacker, and here's the evidence we have." "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go. Although we don't believe he is a hacker, everyone else does." The first response is reasonable. Team Liquid is firing a player based on their own standards. It's within their rights. The second response is depressing, and result of caving to public pressure and opinion. The quality or strength of the evidence/argument is irrelevant. Another, more recent example is when EG fired Orb. EG Alex did not fire Orb because people found his behaviour offensive. Alex fired Orb because, coincidentally, he had an undergrad in Black Studies and ulitmately HE found Orb's behaviour offensive and didn't want him on his payroll. First... Alex did fire orb because of the community, he did not fire Idra and that is proof enough. You are trying to compare apples with oranges here, The orb situation was a PROVEN thing, and EG had to let him go due to community backlash even tho they themselves were reasonable enough to allow him stay even tho he said niger no ladder 1 year ago. The community was immature, or "offended" as some refer to it, and thus orb had to be fired since it might have hurt the EG brand. Spades maphacking isn't a PROVEN issue, its quite obvious but not PROVEN, however the community as a whole can agree that cheating in a showmatch/qualifier is a bad thing and should be acted upon by the team even if its "just that one time", the problem here is that we are not sure if he was hacking or not, not arguing the "morals" of hacking. The relieving/resigning of Spades from WW happened about 200 pages ago. I am inclined to believe that the team leader didn't decide he was over and done without first having a long convo with Spades and also look at all the evidence for himself. I find it hard to believe that he would be naive enough to get rid of him based on the reaction of the community to accusation and a hunch that it must all be true.
You don't even have to assume. If you go back and look, both Martjin and Spades announced that it was Spades' decision to leave in order to spare WW any undue embarassment. Martjin also stated that (at the time of release) they don't believe Spades to be a hacker.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 14:11 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 13:33 figq wrote:The "precog" case really gets me. Replay here: http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sightWatch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. It's strange for sure, but if you follow his camera and base everything on that you'll miss some fine details. What I'm referring to is the fact that moving across the map by means of e.g. double-clicking a hotkey or using a screen hotkey takes you there instantly while playing. When following his camera in the replay it takes you a little while to get there. During that split second (it might be 0.5 seconds at most, but I haven't tried measuring) he did have vision of all 6 eggs at the natural before moving his hellions back. Now I agree, it's still weird of him to say what he does. But he could have noticed the eggs and then tries to poke GoldenLight with his comment, to see if he gets any valuable information. And sorry for everyone who gets angry when anyone tries to defend Spades. I am rather certain that Spades has been hacking, but I won't stay silent when I see a possible explanation in his favor. Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous.
Indeed. I don't comprehend how someone can convince himself otherwise. It's just lol. Lucky tank siege, sure. Lucky doom drop attack, sure. Lucky minimap clicks, whatever. Lucky scans, why not. Lucky mirroring opponent movement, sure. Each one can be seen as extremely suspicious yet circumstantial. But when you add them together, especially on top of this scouting information, the answer be fucking clear.
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On June 07 2012 16:29 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 14:43 McFeser wrote:
that he went from low masters to 1#GM in the blink of unstreamed eye Where's the part about him being GM and placing top 32 multiple times in MLG before dropping down to Masters in his poker and CS phase?
Was his previous rise to GM streamed either?
Also it could very well have been legit back then, it is not hard to believe that if he was in the proper practice regimen he could, back in the day before the Koreans came around, be able to keep himself in upper tier shape in the NA ladder and tourneys. He is not an AWFUL player. He has good game understanding.
But the points that GiX and his other teammate made about him having basically quit altogether and play at mid masters the last time they saw him and having pretty much no practice regimen at all due to loss of motivation, not practicing like an upper tier player, then a sudden GM1, and a 3-4 vs one of the best foreigner TvT'ers in the world, is still relevant.
Combine that with the fact that his current play as evidenced by his latest streams doesn't have the look of the upper crust mechanics and decisions one would expect of today's GM, much less rank 1, much less with better winrates than Demuslim and SelecT.
Doesn't add up.
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On June 07 2012 16:39 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:29 dvorakftw wrote:On June 07 2012 14:43 McFeser wrote:
that he went from low masters to 1#GM in the blink of unstreamed eye Where's the part about him being GM and placing top 32 multiple times in MLG before dropping down to Masters in his poker and CS phase? Was his previous rise to GM streamed either?
Yes.
Also, may I just point out that CombatEx was #1 on the NA ladder at one point?
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On June 07 2012 16:10 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:58 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:43 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote:On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote:
I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion..
Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? No not really i am sorry, but you can not let a team or players who play with him (friends) judge him for simple bias reasons. Independend pro gamers how ever can. Alright, let me try again. "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go because we believe he is a hacker, and here's the evidence we have." "Team Liquid has decided to let Haypro go. Although we don't believe he is a hacker, everyone else does." The first response is reasonable. Team Liquid is firing a player based on their own standards. It's within their rights. The second response is depressing, and result of caving to public pressure and opinion. The quality or strength of the evidence/argument is irrelevant. Another, more recent example is when EG fired Orb. EG Alex did not fire Orb because people found his behaviour offensive. Alex fired Orb because, coincidentally, he had an undergrad in Black Studies and ulitmately HE found Orb's behaviour offensive and didn't want him on his payroll.
Intresting point unfortunatly they will not do that since he already left himself (to the outside it was Spades own choice atleast) and for Western Wolfs they made there statement and are done with it.
Spades simply will not be investigated by his old team, they pulled out. That will not change in 2 weeks either unless an idependent person will provide with a 100% way to proof Spades was hacking. And then Western Wolf might tell there view point and as what happend when Spades left.
Point is Western Wolfs will not lead but respond accordingly instead, and so can not judge of it's old player.
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On June 07 2012 16:23 Aterons_toss wrote:
The orb situation was a PROVEN thing, and EG had to let him go due to community backlash even tho they themselves were reasonable enough to allow him stay even tho he said niger no ladder 1 year ago.
The community was immature, or "offended" as some refer to it, and thus orb had to be fired since it might have hurt the EG brand.
This is revisionist history and entirely your own personal, biased interpretation of events.
You can read Alex's own account here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319018
If you want to blame or disagree with anyone about how the Orb situation was handled, blame Orb or EG Alex.
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EPT
