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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Agnosthar
631 Posts
Confirmed stream cheater in SC2. In my mind he's already done enough that no right thinking team/tournament should be getting involved with this guy. This is basically the e-sports equivalent of drugs in physical sport, should be zero tolerance here. | ||
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jacksonlee
175 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 14:37 psychotics wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2012 14:23 insanet wrote: then, what do you expect? do you expect split marine micro? do you expect perefect mule timing? do you expect him to negate every drop and never be caught off-guard? im sorry to say it but this case is beyond your skill, you are asking for easy hacks he is not that stupid. actually if he was hacking he shouldnt be caught of guard by drops which believe he was in the Bo7... im asking for something that substantial thats all something concrete, something that is unexplainable that is impossible not improbable. You're asking for a lot considering we don't have it. We have to go by what we know. What we do know, in sum total, says that his play is not kosher in these series. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote: Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. | ||
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AngryFarmer
United States560 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:17 Agnosthar wrote: Confirmed map hacker in Broodwar. Confirmed stream cheater in SC2. In my mind he's already done enough that no right thinking team/tournament should be getting involved with this guy. This is basically the e-sports equivalent of drugs in physical sport, should be zero tolerance here. I totally agree. I actually dont understand how his bw cheating was tolerable. I learned about Spades in SC2 but was never made aware of his cheating in bw. On June 07 2012 15:18 Integra wrote: Will be interesting to see if Spades actually shows up at the tournament since every pro player now thinks or suspects that he cheats and hacks, lol. (The stream cheating is already confirmed, remember?) There's no way to hack at a live tournament. Everyone would be able to see. I'm also assuming they use the computers at the tournament which most likely wont have the hack installed. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote: I understand that you're probably unhappy with the huge stir and perhaps pre-mature outrage, but this is an outrageous allegation on both sides, whether you believe this is a case of an innocent player being falsely accused, or a professional gamer cheating. Adding to the confusion on both sides is the number of professionals giving their opinions, be it for or against Spades. There is really no other way for the community to react other than in confusion.. Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes don't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:25 AngryFarmer wrote: There's no way to hack at a live tournament. Everyone would be able to see. I'm also assuming they use the computers at the tournament which most likely wont have the hack installed. I was more thinking about the fact that most people, specially the people you will play will believe or suspect you are cheating, and you have to walk around there and talk to them and shit lol. And what happens if he totally bombs out during the opening brackets, how will people react and so forth. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 14:38 kineSiS- wrote: Honestly, I wasn't even directing my words at choice people. Can everyone, including me I suppose, be proud of the fact that they've posted in this thread overall contributing to the detriment of Spades career. Any defense at this point is futile even if it makes an impact. Right now it seems highly unlikely that he wasn't hacking. But is that absolute/ can't be questioned concrete yet? No. I'm not proud of my contribution in helping examine evidence that ruined his career yet. But when the evidence keeps piling up and it seems more and more unlikely that these suspicions are all just a random set of coincidences, and we reach the point where not many are left that could still believe he didn't hack, then yes I will be proud if I had a part to play in exposing him, because hackers disgust me, they ruin the fair competition of this game I hold so dear, the competition is everything and if someone is falsely getting ahead by a means other than skill I will be proud til the end of my days to bury his career into the ground. Not saying I know yet that he did it, but based on the extensive studying of the pretty huge amount of evidence I have done I'm already pretty far beyond a reasonable doubt in my own mind, as I have not been shown enough reasonable doubts in comparison to the number of incidences of shadiness. As Drewbie said, there is no irreperable damage being done here. If Spades were uncannily able to explain every bit of his weird incidents in an undeniably logical way or reproduce on his stream the kind of actions he claims to have made in that series in a comfortable way like he's done it before......if his name was cleared....people would flock to the martyr'd soul like groupies. His name is already 10x more recognized than it ever was and if he were proved to be innocent there is no way people would hold the witch hunt against the innocent victim. They would support him and probably even apologize. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:32 Defacer wrote: Which is why I don't blame the community. As I said earlier, I mostly blame TL for letting it unravel the way they did. Listen, I don't like hackers, and I certainly don't know or care about Spades in particular. But I think in this case, with an accusation this serious, I think TL could have done a better job in it's response, and how it was moderated. Let's put it this way: the open discussion about the Transgender Miss Universe had more red ink and revisions in it than this thread. Even if other pro's, the TL Mods, or whoever is behind the scenes doesn't like Spades, he still is/was a pro-player with his rep on the line, and deserved the courtesy of being judged by his own peers, before allowing the community to chime in with our two cents. He at least should get an updated OP! Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:13 lisward wrote: Second, I don't understand your problem with this anonymous posting, I'm posting anonymously, you're doing it to, you don't know my identity and I don't know yours and its my right to keep it that way. I've said it before and I've said it again, this has evolved past some 1 post dude making accusations, this is about the community, and a significant number of pro gamers accusing someone of hacking. I have a problem with the anonymity because the allegation is so serious. And while players endorsed and wanted further discussion about the topic, part of me wonders if that's enough of a reason to allow the public to start picking a player apart. The players and mods have their own private forum, maybe it should have happened there. Maybe it did happen, it's going on right now, but TL is waiting to make a statement. For all we know, Spades could be fighting for his reputation somewhere else on a private forum. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:18 jacksonlee wrote: I hope you guys realize how much time you're spending on speculating and arguing to no avail. Because this "discussion" is just hearsay to the mods and officials and even Sapdes until someone comes up with definite proof. Nope. There are way too many unanswered questionable incidents stacked against him for it to be mere hearsay, even without the 'concrete' proof you desire. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:36 StarStrider wrote: Right now it seems highly unlikely that he wasn't hacking. But is that absolute/ can't be questioned concrete yet? No. I'm not proud of my contribution in helping examine evidence that ruined his career yet. But when the evidence keeps piling up and it seems more and more unlikely that these suspicions are all just a random set of coincidences, and we reach the point where not many are left that could still believe he didn't hack, then yes I will be proud if I had a part to play in exposing him, because hackers disgust me, they ruin the fair competition of this game I hold so dear, the competition is everything and if someone is falsely getting ahead by a means other than skill I will be proud til the end of my days to bury his career into the ground. Not saying I know yet that he did it, but based on the extensive studying of the pretty huge amount of evidence I have done I'm already pretty far beyond a reasonable doubt in my own mind, as I have not been shown enough reasonable doubts in comparison to the number of incidences of shadiness. As Drewbie said, there is no irreperable damage being done here. If Spades were uncannily able to explain every bit of his weird incidents in an undeniably logical way or reproduce on his stream the kind of actions he claims to have made in that series in a comfortable way like he's done it before......if his name was cleared....people would flock to the martyr'd soul like groupies. His name is already 10x more recognized than it ever was and if he were proved to be innocent there is no way people would hold the witch hunt against the innocent victim. They would support him and probably even apologize. Not hating on Drewbie, but progamers aren't know for their intelligence but rather their game playing ability. I highly disagree. I'm glad that we came to a standstill, but the fact is, there is irreparable damage being done here. Because HE CAN'T explain everything he did. And even if he did, his word is as good as dirt after being condemned and put to the cross but dozens of players. Once people make up their mind, their mind is made. Have you seen what's happened? He's been kicked off a team for Christ's sake. People, even ex-hackers, deserve better than this. Why do you think there are so many rights to alleged criminals in our legal system. Everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves, even those you consider scum. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:38 Lysanias wrote: Out of curiosity, who do you consider his peers then ? Other players, casters, team managers, teammates ... basically the people that either have to actually work with him or play against him. They're the opinions that should decide whether he plays professionally or not anymore. In the Western Wolves statement, they basically admitted they weren't sure if they could keep him, regardless of whether or not he was proved to be a hacker. Maybe I'm a softie, but I'd much rather wait a week and find out Western Wolves fired him because they thought he was a filthy hacker. Does that make sense? | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On June 07 2012 14:56 Chessz wrote: here's the thing, why do you think the pros that condemned him assumed he was guilty (other than perhaps recalling a history of hacking, which is a legitimate suspicion)? They've viewed the replays themselves, Catz et. al posted hours in advance that they were planning a stream of the replays, a decision they came to after viewing them in house. So Daniel C was pointing out that you were making an assumption that they entered with a bias or assumed hacking themselves. This we can't be entirely sure is true or not, but they reviewed the evidence. Your stance is asinine because to them and many viewers it was actually blindingly clear that they were correct.. the critical questions still go unanswered. Circumstancial evidence is all we'll have but most (pros) agree in this case that it is enough. And that's the problem. | ||
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Kitchen.Sink
26 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote: Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:43 kineSiS- wrote: Not hating on Drewbie, but progamers aren't know for their intelligence but rather their game playing ability. I highly disagree. I'm glad that we came to a standstill, but the fact is, there is irreparable damage being done here. Because HE CAN'T explain everything he did. And even if he did, his word is as good as dirt after being condemned and put to the cross but dozens of players. Once people make up their mind, their mind is made. Have you seen what's happened? He's been kicked off a team for Christ's sake. People, even ex-hackers, deserve better than this. Why do you think there are so many rights to alleged criminals in our legal system. Everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves, even those you consider scum. Didn't he leave his own team? Besides, the thing that made everyone really suspicious was the lack of a defense coming from Spades.. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:32 Integra wrote: I was more thinking about the fact that most people, specially the people you will play will believe or suspect you are cheating, and you have to walk around there and talk to them and shit lol. And what happens if he totally bombs out during the opening brackets, how will people react and so forth. Even with his hacks he wouldn't stand much chance. I don't think anyone will be shocked. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:43 kineSiS- wrote: Not hating on Drewbie, but progamers aren't know for their intelligence but rather their game playing ability. I highly disagree. I'm glad that we came to a standstill, but the fact is, there is irreparable damage being done here. Because HE CAN'T explain everything he did. And even if he did, his word is as good as dirt after being condemned and put to the cross but dozens of players. Once people make up their mind, their mind is made. Have you seen what's happened? He's been kicked off a team for Christ's sake. People, even ex-hackers, deserve better than this. Why do you think there are so many rights to alleged criminals in our legal system. Everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves, even those you consider scum. He got kicked off the team/resigned after the majority of the evidence came out and was analyzed. I have to believe that was the team manager's decision based on the evidence he had seen and I'm sure not even a significant portion of his decision was influenced by public opinion (the witch hunt) or the bandwagon of Spades slayers, but rather he looked at the evidence himself and agreed it was enough in his opinion to be damning, especially considering his intimate knowledge of Spades history. I'm sure Spades was given plenty of chance to defend himself in their conversations. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote: The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous. Haven't tried any in SC2 but at least in brood war it just removes fog of war basically, giving you full view of everything. However there probably are some hacks also that make the replay look "genuine", for instance removing suspicious clicks of objects that would be inside the FoW. That lack of checking the SCV could be caused by something like that. However, as said, I have no knowledge about SC2 hacks so I can't really say anything about that. Either way I personally have always hated Spades, he also was a confirmed hacker in SCBW and has always seemed shady to me. I probably am biased, though, but let's just say that if this was true I would be less surprised than if it wasn't. | ||
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