07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Ok Mr. CommunityVoiceOfReason, how should we handle this?
multiple ways to handle it with out starting a witch hunt. Could of emailed the evidence to western wolves who would than investigate the accusations and made a proper statement. How ever the op very much so made this completely public which now is starting this witch hunt.
the hunt hasn't started. no one emailed sponsor or anything
we are just discussing the validity of the hack and whether it is true or not.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/
that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
Well, it would take a hacker to sniff out a hacker, right?
I'm not a fan of TT1 but he's kept his nose clean and above board so cut him some slack, or you gonna rage on Haypro etc too?
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
Dear Lord, it's like the final 10 minutes of a CSI episode.
On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote: The thing is he was probably hacking for fun. I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated.
Are u suggesting that cheating and hacking is okay as long as there is no money on the line?
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/
that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
payam your input was invaluable and also hilarious i <3 u
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2)
Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name.
I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
That's so stupid. Don't throw your player out and say it was because of peer pressure. That looks so weak and in no scenario possible will that make his team look good.
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that.
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2)
Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name.
I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
This is actually really sad. It's amazing how fast this went down.
On June 05 2012 14:03 Klipsys wrote: Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating?
it's entirely hearsay. Theres no evidence other than one post, one person's testimony. With absence of virtually any evidence, it's definitely not worthy of a thread. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it, though.
it's also the single most dangerous allegation in the history of SC2....it could ruin a lot if it's true
Diamond (from ESV) has confirmed that trusted (his words describing them was 100%) contacts of his say its true.
I don't now anything about it personally, but if its true I'd have to know how much it goes on before passing my unduly harsh judgment.
What?
He doesn't say that.
"not people I would trust enough to say it's a 100% thing"
But he does say that it's good enough to confirm in his mind, just not 100%.
why would you let this situation be in an open thread? I see countless people just come in here and say: Leave hacker, Leave and never comeback, I hope you get burned down and will never be seen again, etcetc
I dont even know why Liquid is having this open for all, this is bringing so much hurt to Spades, if he has hacked, then he has, and he will be punished it by his sponsors and blizzard, maybe but its not a good enough reason to tell him to die, or hide himself for the rest of his life.
On June 05 2012 14:17 Sterling wrote: This reminds me of the time he accepted my $1000 bet match challenge, and then backed out when I said he (we both) had to stream it.
Well, one thing is for sure. Whether or not Spades does indeed turn out to be a hacker, allowing this thread to stay open has been a huge mistake by the TL mods. It should never have been allowed.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/
that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
payam your input was invaluable and also hilarious i <3 u
Drewbie isn't it possible he was only streaming cheating (of which he was confirmed of doing earlier with SC2) versus map hacking? What makes you so certain he was map hacking?
On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote: The thing is he was probably hacking for fun. I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated.
So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/
that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
payam your input was invaluable and also hilarious i <3 u
Drewbie isn't it possible he was only streaming cheating (of which he was confirmed of doing earlier with SC2) versus map hacking? What makes you so certain he was map hacking?
He'd still look into the fog of war when rallying units or taking a tower or whatever, as he did on stream.
EPT
