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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
game debunk metalopolis:
2:50 scv pathing, scv goes partway up ramp sees wall then path is blocked by 2nd supply depot thus scv goes to point closest rally, returned home with a hotkey (can see the wall)
spades has no scouting so he goes fast 1-1-1 having out a fast tank(no seige) and viking (energy for one scan) which would come out at relatively the same time as a banshee (opening either a transition to standard or banshee play)
sees medivac hellion marine, immediate 2nd tank + mule
places marines along most likely drop path (diagonal from watch tower)
improper positioning of viking (above army instead of over ravine to prevent the medi from swinging around results in hellion drop
holds, has faster tech and more tanks = gg
verdict clean game
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On June 05 2012 14:22 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking a perceived character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, of someone in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. The first part of your statement is spot on. But then you assume that he is somehow a compulsive liar based on that alone. Quite a jump, no?
"Which fits with a history of denial" (equaling multiple years in fact). No I'd say that's actually not that far of a jump at all.
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On June 05 2012 14:19 Nimic wrote:
Well, one thing is for sure. Whether or not Spades does indeed turn out to be a hacker, allowing this thread to stay open has been a huge mistake by the TL mods. It should never have been allowed.
It really doesn't matter, even if the thread was closed here on TL the crucifixion would still be going on on other sites *cough, reddit. cough*
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On June 05 2012 14:23 Thaniri wrote:
I kind of enjoyed how StarStrider and his 5 word posts is just adding to the complete cluster fuck that this thread seems to be. And he said he wasn't witch hunting, haha.
Guys, I do not think we need to take action against Spades, based on what I've seen it is EXTREMELY suspicious, but how can we prove it? Saying all that, he also LOST the showmatch, so unless second place also got a prize (I could be completely shooting myself in the foot, but I dont think there was one) literally nothing happened.
Now if he plays ANOTHER event with the same suspicious behaviour, or some people start reporting many ladder replays of this, then we really need to reprimand Spades and outright call him a cheater.
I don't know, I just abhor pulling out the 'Hacker Hacker!' card too fast.
I've read a lot of this thread, and do not want to be bothered quoting people, I'll just throw my 2 cents in to this whirlpool of chaos.
Glad to be of entertainment to you. I thought I clarified a few things, but if you say I'm just making it more confusing, I guess I'll just stop talking.
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On June 05 2012 14:23 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) @MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there. I am so tired of this "congrats OP, you ruined a career, now go feel bad" It's immature and fails to address the actual issue. There is some pretty damning evidence that Spades was using some kind of map hack. It's not like the OP just said "hey I think Spades is cheating" and then there was a huge shit storm. He had a post that made the accusation of cheating, and then posted a multitude of evidence against him. Stop with this silly guilt mongering because the OP is not the one to blame.
I don't know what you saw, but I've watched and read everything, including this video on the MAGIC scan
Note here is a viewer from TL who posted a video about the "magic" scan.
Magic Scan
It would appear that such a magic scan is possible.
However, there is No "pretty damning evidence" that you state explicitly. While I believe he probably stream cheated at the very least, if not more, there is not nearly enough evidence to state otherwise.
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On June 05 2012 14:22 zmansman17 wrote:
Quite a jump, no?
Yeah, it's a jump to you, but it fits to me.
You can PM me if you want my take on it, but I feel it's kinda personal/presumptuous to air publicly. and it's just my opinion really. not fact.
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On June 05 2012 14:25 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:23 Thaniri wrote:
I kind of enjoyed how StarStrider and his 5 word posts is just adding to the complete cluster fuck that this thread seems to be. And he said he wasn't witch hunting, haha.
Guys, I do not think we need to take action against Spades, based on what I've seen it is EXTREMELY suspicious, but how can we prove it? Saying all that, he also LOST the showmatch, so unless second place also got a prize (I could be completely shooting myself in the foot, but I dont think there was one) literally nothing happened.
Now if he plays ANOTHER event with the same suspicious behaviour, or some people start reporting many ladder replays of this, then we really need to reprimand Spades and outright call him a cheater.
I don't know, I just abhor pulling out the 'Hacker Hacker!' card too fast.
I've read a lot of this thread, and do not want to be bothered quoting people, I'll just throw my 2 cents in to this whirlpool of chaos. Glad to be of entertainment to you. I thought I clarified a few things, but if you say I'm just making it more confusing, I guess I'll just stop talking.
If you think your arguments are valid, then do it, noone can say otherwise.
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On June 05 2012 14:18 triforks wrote:
wow its too damn easy to maphack i just tested this....
all u gotta do is google it and it works wow how can it be that easy....
uh............. what?
u dumb? why would you download a maphack........ and then tell everybody you did it.... lol
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Out of curiosity, is there anyone who watched Catz' discussion and wasn't convinced? Does the fact that pros are convinced of it too not matter to you? Idra posted basically saying he's convinced, as well as others. What sort of reputable sources are you guys going to accept?
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On June 05 2012 14:22 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. Oh for crying out loud, now everyone is an expert psychologist.
I know right?! Everyone is pretending like their opinion actually MATTERS. What is wrong with them?
I wish everyone were as wise as you, you who put the TL mods to shame! I mean, it's like those ignorant buffoons never thought about closing this thread! And after all, nothing good came out of this at all! There was no discussion by pro-gamers, no extra evidence, no first-hand evidence from people who knew Spades personally, nothing! Damn that stupid OP who thought he had EVIDENCE. What an idiot.
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On June 05 2012 14:22 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:18 Bobo_XIII wrote:
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that. Its not like this is going to be front page on TL forever. Most people have short attention spans. The next hot topic will arise and people will move on. Soon everyone will be pouring over the HoTs info or something. Something else will happen and people will move on. I don't think people are going to actually be outside his house with Molotav Cocktails. It hasn't happened in the past doubt it will in this situation.
Trust me, this isn't going away. Hacking/stream cheating stays with people forever. And i personally think there should be a zero tolerance for it. You do it once, you're gone forever. Spades was caught before doing it, given a second chance, and here he is doing it again. Make an example and make it the standard.
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On June 05 2012 14:26 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:23 Tewks44 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) @MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there. I am so tired of this "congrats OP, you ruined a career, now go feel bad" It's immature and fails to address the actual issue. There is some pretty damning evidence that Spades was using some kind of map hack. It's not like the OP just said "hey I think Spades is cheating" and then there was a huge shit storm. He had a post that made the accusation of cheating, and then posted a multitude of evidence against him. Stop with this silly guilt mongering because the OP is not the one to blame. I don't know what you saw, but I've watched and read everything, including this video on the MAGIC scan Note here is a viewer from TL who posted a video about the "magic" scan. Magic ScanIt would appear that such a magic scan is possible.However, there is No "pretty damning evidence" that you state explicitly. While I believe he probably stream cheated at the very least, if not more, there is not nearly enough evidence to state otherwise.
The damning evidence is that he looked in the fog of war 0 times during the showmatch games, but constantly used the fog of war clicks as opposed to the minimap in every ladder game he sent in.
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On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined.
Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out.
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On June 05 2012 14:18 McFeser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) @MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there. That's so stupid. Don't throw your player out and say it was because of peer pressure. That looks so weak and in no scenario possible will that make his team look good.
Why is Martijin being such a cry baby? The guy cheated, that's why his career is done. Should be ashamed and embarrassed to ever have such a cheater on his team. The proof is so blatantly obvious that anyone with competent skill in SC2 knows it's true.
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"It's set up like a deck of cards
They're sending us to early graves
For all the diamonds
They'll use a pair of clubs to beat the spades"
Sort of on point. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
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On June 05 2012 14:26 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:23 Tewks44 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) @MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there. I am so tired of this "congrats OP, you ruined a career, now go feel bad" It's immature and fails to address the actual issue. There is some pretty damning evidence that Spades was using some kind of map hack. It's not like the OP just said "hey I think Spades is cheating" and then there was a huge shit storm. He had a post that made the accusation of cheating, and then posted a multitude of evidence against him. Stop with this silly guilt mongering because the OP is not the one to blame. I don't know what you saw, but I've watched and read everything, including this video on the MAGIC scan Note here is a viewer from TL who posted a video about the "magic" scan. Magic ScanIt would appear that such a magic scan is possible.However, there is No "pretty damning evidence" that you state explicitly. While I believe he probably stream cheated at the very least, if not more, there is not nearly enough evidence to state otherwise.
The fact he never looked into the fog of war is pretty damning evidence in my opinion.
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On June 05 2012 14:26 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:22 Nimic wrote:On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. Oh for crying out loud, now everyone is an expert psychologist. I know right?! Everyone is pretending like their opinion actually MATTERS. What is wrong with them? I wish everyone were as wise as you, you who put the TL mods to shame! I mean, it's like those ignorant buffoons never thought about closing this thread! And after all, nothing good came out of this at all! There was no discussion by pro-gamers, no extra evidence, no first-hand evidence from people who knew Spades personally, nothing! Damn that stupid OP who thought he had EVIDENCE. What an idiot.
I feel like you're trying to tell me something.
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Haven't read through this thread much or watched the CatZ anaylsis but I can only hope these accusations can be proven as 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career...
If this turns out to be another witch hunt and a player has to pay the price for it I would feel so fucking sorry for them.
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Whats damning for me now is that Spades didnt actually respond to the fog of war or scan accusations as far as I could see (please correct me if im wrong) and just started going on about how people were making things up and the whole world was against him.
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On June 05 2012 14:26 Mohdoo wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there anyone who watched Catz' discussion and wasn't convinced? Does the fact that pros are convinced of it too not matter to you? Idra posted basically saying he's convinced, as well as others. What sort of reputable sources are you guys going to accept?
To be fair, there have been pro players that have stated the evidence isn't conclusive too. The odds certainly seem stacked against Spades, but him being guilty of hacking isn't a unanimous verdict, at least as of right now.
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EPT
