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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
While I agree with most of the logic of your assessment, this only leads to the conclusion that he had tendencies of a compulsive liar in this one instance. We really cannot generalize further.
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On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career...
If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already.
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On June 05 2012 13:40 NITRIXdaisuki wrote:
Sometimes you just know what they other guy is going to do. I've played a terran that proxy rack all ins me EVERY game so I use my scouting overlords in a way I usually don't and find them. When you play at the very top you only verse the same opponents repeatedly and pretty much figure out their playstyle, their bad habits. Tons of players use the same strategy like two port and I just blind counter it with spores... vVvRUFF does multiple 1 base aggression builds EVERY single game.
I'm not going to watch these replays because honestly, only a really good terran player could see and think the way Spades thought.. Maybe he ran his army around indecisively because he had sense that a drop was incoming i don't know. The series was 4 - 3? its a good amount of games to figure out how your opponent thinks and plays.
All i have to say is, i've been accused of map hacking AND I DONT so whoever is throwing accusations out there better have great evidence backing it up
How many times in a row have you blind countered someone? probably not more than once or twice but 7 times is just throwing an alert up there. And have you ever to put how TT1 said "shadow boxed" someone that perfectly on Antiga? Have you just sent 1 marine (not 2 marines 1 to each flank) exactly to where your opponents army is positioned? Now explain to all of us the drop that was blindly stopped on TDA? is there anywhere you've ever seen someone click on the drop spots with vikings or anything else without any vision of there being a drop at that exact spot?
Go back and watch the Catz stream VOD or go get those replays and get some pro to explain to you how stupid you sound by not having any justification yourself to defend him.
And that score honestly means nothing because you wouldn't be blindly doing the SAME build with probably variations as some we're different 1/1/1's but honestly you dont blind counter like that every game. Alot of us have watched so many best of series and have had players comment on their thoughts that its pretty obvious that you dont change your mechanics ever its all about your builds and meta gaming. Which obviously doesnt happen when you get crushed with the 1 build you decide to use.
Map hacks give you the advantage of vision but not the mechanics to win. Compare his mechanics in those showmatch games to any GM terran player and see if he's doing typical things any GM terran would do excusing the few mistakes they make out of every 200 games they play. Cause you probably cant prove any of it.
And Illusion was in watching those replays who is a Top level terran so I'd do some research like watching that stream VOD before posting on these forums again.
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This whole issue is disappointing. You are supposed to be professional and work hard to earn your place, not streamwatch, maphack, etc.
Koreans cheating in showmatches as well, all I have to say is wow... Good luck to everyone involved, you need it.
If its a huge conspiracy as well, bad bad bad. I hope all truth is found out here and those responsible for this ridiculousness is brought to justice here.
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On June 05 2012 14:29 Shaddar wrote:
Whats damning for me now is that Spades didnt actually respond to the fog of war or scan accusations as far as I could see (please correct me if im wrong) and just started going on about how people were making things up and the whole world was against him.
It's been shown that the scan accusations are false. I would like to hear his input on the fog of war stuff, though.
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On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already.
Even TT1 said he's only 75% sure.
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On June 05 2012 14:30 ThaSlayer wrote:
Foreigner KeSPA anyone?
Although you're not being serious(I hope) and that would solve this one problem... No.
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On June 05 2012 14:27 naux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined. Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out.
It's sad that you think hacking/cheating is okay. Talk about being part of the problem.
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On June 05 2012 14:28 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:26 zmansman17 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:23 Tewks44 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) @MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there. I am so tired of this "congrats OP, you ruined a career, now go feel bad" It's immature and fails to address the actual issue. There is some pretty damning evidence that Spades was using some kind of map hack. It's not like the OP just said "hey I think Spades is cheating" and then there was a huge shit storm. He had a post that made the accusation of cheating, and then posted a multitude of evidence against him. Stop with this silly guilt mongering because the OP is not the one to blame. I don't know what you saw, but I've watched and read everything, including this video on the MAGIC scan Note here is a viewer from TL who posted a video about the "magic" scan. Magic ScanIt would appear that such a magic scan is possible.However, there is No "pretty damning evidence" that you state explicitly. While I believe he probably stream cheated at the very least, if not more, there is not nearly enough evidence to state otherwise. The fact he never looked into the fog of war is pretty damning evidence in my opinion.
Ok, but even if you accept that as "damning evidence", that need not lead to the conclusion that he map hacks. He may just have stream cheated during the show match. After all, the owner of his previous team alleged that he had found Spades stream cheating DURING show matches, no less.
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On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already.
I said I haven't read MUCH of this thread but enough to see that assucations and counter-arguments are flying back and forth at an incredible rate. Is it now required to go through 112 pages of arguments and comments before posting something on TL now? I sure hope not...
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On June 05 2012 14:29 Shaddar wrote:
Whats damning for me now is that Spades didnt actually respond to the fog of war or scan accusations as far as I could see (please correct me if im wrong) and just started going on about how people were making things up and the whole world was against him.
this put a question mark on my face aswell,
Spades has never really answered too this, so I thought he wnet offline but then i c him respond to something else, which only means he is ignoring those, or finding a good way to explain them.
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The most difficult part of this to me is how it was handled. If the best we can do when problems arise in the community is a huge spectacle of a witch hunt then something needs to be done. I do not doubt Catz and other pro's sincerity in their assessments but I have never wished for an SC2 governing body more than throughout this whole debacle. KESPA 2.0 might even be worth it if it prevents this kind of lynch mob.
tl/dr: Even guilty people deserve the dignity of due process.
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On June 05 2012 14:24 djshinE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:12 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote:
I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim)
2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it. Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/ that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm What exactly is keeping you from thinking he hacks 100%? How can the lack of looking into the FOV be explained?
Well obviously the only way that u can prove whether or not someone hacks for certain is by having concrete evidence, i.e: he clicks something that he doesnt have vision of. The fog of war stuff that they brought up in the discussion comes extremely close to that type of evidence tho.
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On June 05 2012 14:31 Achilles17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:27 naux wrote:On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined. Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out. It's sad that you think hacking/cheating is okay. Talk about being part of the problem.
Its also really weird to hear a hacker talk about how common they think it is. A lot of times people who lie think other people lie, etc. Psychology is weird O_o
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On June 05 2012 14:31 Achilles17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:27 naux wrote:On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined. Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out. It's sad that you think hacking/cheating is okay. Talk about being part of the problem.
Agreed. Have your kid take steroids to get good at a sport while your at it.
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On June 05 2012 14:29 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:26 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 14:22 zmansman17 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking a perceived character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, of someone in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. The first part of your statement is spot on. But then you assume that he is somehow a compulsive liar based on that alone. Quite a jump, no? Yeah, it's a jump to you, but it fits to me. I'll elaborate: This response from Spades immediately disqualifies the possiblity of him being completely forthright and honest about the whole thing. Rather than dealing with the argument, rather than even trying to discredit Gix-The-Person-Making-The-Argument, he instead chooses to inflict what he feels is emotional harm on Gix. If he wanted to discredit Gix, he could have attempted to do it in a different way by stating something about Gix publicly. That attacking a perceived emotional vulnerability in others is his go-to, knee-jerk response to challenge suggests that manipulation of the emotional states of others is a common trait, which suggests compulsive lying. While I agree with most of the logic of your assessment, this only leads to the conclusion that he had tendencies of a compulsive liar in this one instance. We really cannot generalize further.
This guy is right. He doesn't even try to deny it, he just tries to make Gix shut up by trolling-hating him. I watched CatZ' discussion, I read the whole OP, I've been reading the vast majority of posts on this thread. I absolutely believe that Spades is both maphacking and a compulsive liar.
I also notice while typing this that the most recently posted-on fanclub is Spades'. I really don't think it needs to go to his fanclub..
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On June 05 2012 14:31 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already. Even TT1 said he's only 75% sure.
While TT1 is lovely, it's never good to put complete faith in any authority.
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On June 05 2012 14:28 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:26 ghrur wrote:On June 05 2012 14:22 Nimic wrote:On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. Oh for crying out loud, now everyone is an expert psychologist. I know right?! Everyone is pretending like their opinion actually MATTERS. What is wrong with them? I wish everyone were as wise as you, you who put the TL mods to shame! I mean, it's like those ignorant buffoons never thought about closing this thread! And after all, nothing good came out of this at all! There was no discussion by pro-gamers, no extra evidence, no first-hand evidence from people who knew Spades personally, nothing! Damn that stupid OP who thought he had EVIDENCE. What an idiot. I feel like you're trying to tell me something.
I worship your feet, great Nimic. You are my one and only God. I have no other false idols. Use your great wisdom to guide us in this worthless community toward a path of righteousness. Clearly these incompetent TL mods cannot do it without you.
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EPT
