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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 14:19 Nimic wrote:
Well, one thing is for sure. Whether or not Spades does indeed turn out to be a hacker, allowing this thread to stay open has been a huge mistake by the TL mods. It should never have been allowed.
I'm sure it was a calculated effort from TL. I mean, had it been proven that he hacked, I certainly think he should get his due. However, there just isn't enough evidence from everything I've seen to justify such a statement.
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On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit.
This basically says compulsive liar to me, and it fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me.
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On June 05 2012 14:17 Sterling wrote:
This reminds me of the time he accepted my $1000 bet match challenge, and then backed out when I said he (we both) had to stream it.
More evidence. Keep it coming!
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On June 05 2012 14:18 Bobo_XIII wrote:
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that.
I feel like most of the community would be understanding and forgive him if he just came out and admitted instead of pretending like he's the victim of a character defamation rampage. It's on him really.
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On June 05 2012 14:15 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:09 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:08 Shaddar wrote:On June 05 2012 14:06 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:03 Klipsys wrote:
Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating? it's entirely hearsay. Theres no evidence other than one post, one person's testimony. With absence of virtually any evidence, it's definitely not worthy of a thread. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it, though. Not just one person. Diamond said hes heard from sources that it is actually true and is pretty upset by it, check his twitter. It's still hearsay, and now the testimony of two people. Unless it's actually looked into, it shouldn't be made into a thread. Everyone will just jump to their own conclusions before the evidence even comes out. tgun also confirmed it. That means Diamond, tgun, Mirhi, and (allegedly) Artist all claim it happens. Those are four pretty reliable sources.
I wouldn't worry. Outrage from Korea has already begun from the accusations. If those four sources would like to chime in on the issue, they now have a thread to post it in. It still needs names, more evidence, and possibly vods/replays too. All of this done prematurely too, of course.
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On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking a perceived character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, of someone in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me.
The first part of your statement is spot on.
But then you assume that he is somehow a compulsive liar based on that alone. Quite a jump, no?
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On June 05 2012 14:21 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:18 Bobo_XIII wrote:
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that. I feel like most of the community would be understanding and forgive him if he just came out and admitted instead of pretending like he's the victim of a character defamation rampage. It's on him really.
I think it´s end of the line for him, considering his previous issues, and him saying it was time to retire.
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On June 05 2012 14:18 Bobo_XIII wrote:
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that.
Its not like this is going to be front page on TL forever. Most people have short attention spans. The next hot topic will arise and people will move on. Soon everyone will be pouring over the HoTs info or something. Something else will happen and people will move on. I don't think people are going to actually be outside his house with Molotav Cocktails. It hasn't happened in the past doubt it will in this situation.
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On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me.
Oh for crying out loud, now everyone is an expert psychologist.
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This shit fest will be good to follow :D , and I thought today might be boring...
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On June 05 2012 14:17 Sterling wrote:
This reminds me of the time he accepted my $1000 bet match challenge, and then backed out when I said he (we both) had to stream it.
rofl
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I kind of enjoyed how StarStrider and his 5 word posts is just adding to the complete cluster fuck that this thread seems to be. And he said he wasn't witch hunting, haha.
Guys, I do not think we need to take action against Spades, based on what I've seen it is EXTREMELY suspicious, but how can we prove it? Saying all that, he also LOST the showmatch, so unless second place also got a prize (I could be completely shooting myself in the foot, but I dont think there was one) literally nothing happened.
Now if he plays ANOTHER event with the same suspicious behaviour, or some people start reporting many ladder replays of this, then we really need to reprimand Spades and outright call him a cheater.
I don't know, I just abhor pulling out the 'Hacker Hacker!' card too fast.
I've read a lot of this thread, and do not want to be bothered quoting people, I'll just throw my 2 cents in to this whirlpool of chaos.
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On June 05 2012 14:08 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:07 Tump wrote:
LOL, going from mid masters to rank 1 GM. That's not suspicious. This isn't entirely accurate. Obviously he was a GM player who dropped down to Mid master from inactivity. Come on people, at least we can make informed and intelligent comments even if we think he map hacked, stream cheated, etc.
He dropped to mid master because he couldnt hack in front of people. As soon as he was in the privacy of his own home, well...you know the rest.
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On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) Show nested quote +@MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
I am so tired of this "congrats OP, you ruined a career, now go feel bad" It's immature and fails to address the actual issue. There is some pretty damning evidence that Spades was using some kind of map hack. It's not like the OP just said "hey I think Spades is cheating" and then there was a huge shit storm. He had a post that made the accusation of cheating, and then posted a multitude of evidence against him. Stop with this silly guilt mongering because the OP is not the one to blame.
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On June 05 2012 14:19 tromboneham wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:15 zawk9 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:08 Klipsys wrote:On June 05 2012 14:06 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:03 Klipsys wrote:
Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating? it's entirely hearsay. Theres no evidence other than one post, one person's testimony. With absence of virtually any evidence, it's definitely not worthy of a thread. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it, though. it's also the single most dangerous allegation in the history of SC2....it could ruin a lot if it's true Diamond (from ESV) has confirmed that trusted (his words describing them was 100%) contacts of his say its true.  I don't now anything about it personally, but if its true I'd have to know how much it goes on before passing my unduly harsh judgment. What? He doesn't say that. "not people I would trust enough to say it's a 100% thing"But he does say that it's good enough to confirm in his mind, just not 100%.
Woops yeah my mistake I misread it; sincerest apologies for misleading anyone. He's still pretty close to convinced so ignore that rhetorical part of my post.
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On June 05 2012 14:22 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:21 StarStrider wrote:On June 05 2012 14:18 Bobo_XIII wrote:
If Spades is deemed to be guilty by the collective whole of the community, I really hope people keep their fucking cool and don't drive him out with death threats and shit like that. He IS a human being, and while I feel like he should be declared persona non grata if he is indeed hacking, he shouldn't be the target of over the top witch hunting to the point where he should fear for his fucking life or consider suicide or anything unfortunate like that. I feel like most of the community would be understanding and forgive him if he just came out and admitted instead of pretending like he's the victim of a character defamation rampage. It's on him really. I think it´s end of the line for him, considering his previous issues, and him saying it was time to retire.
Well, I mean, they would forgive him if he apologized, but I agree his career would pretty much still be over even after the forgiveness. This will be the 3rd time he has been confirmed for cheating now. Just imagine how many times he has cheated and gotten away unnoticed.
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On June 05 2012 14:16 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +@MartijnMumbles wrote:
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2) Show nested quote +@MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2) Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name. I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
Spades is confirmed by multiple pros to have cheated, even if there's no concensus on if he cheated in this specific instance. As far as this instance goes, there's a hell of a lot of evidence.
We're wiping a cheater out of our game and I am damn proud. Thanks, Mumbles.
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On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me.
I agree. I think the fact that Spades has been able to stay a progamer for so long despite his low skill and poor character is a testment to his ability to manipulate.
btw, this reminds me:
+ Show Spoiler +
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@naux
You were cal-invite but hacked pubs. LOL. I was cal-m with tombstone, went cal-p when it was first implemented, then went cal-i. Do you realize how many hackers were in cal in general? Let alone #Findpug or #Findscrim. You trying to compare the two is completely irrelevant. SRY BRO.
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On June 05 2012 14:12 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote:
I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim)
2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it. Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/ that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
What exactly is keeping you from thinking he hacks 100%? How can the lack of looking into the FOV be explained?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TQKVz.jpg)
