07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 14:03 Klipsys wrote: Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating?
it's entirely hearsay. Theres no evidence other than one post, one person's testimony. With absence of virtually any evidence, it's definitely not worthy of a thread. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it, though.
Not just one person. Diamond said hes heard from sources that it is actually true and is pretty upset by it, check his twitter.
It's still hearsay, and now the testimony of two people. Unless it's actually looked into, it shouldn't be made into a thread. Everyone will just jump to their own conclusions before the evidence even comes out.
tgun also confirmed it. That means Diamond, tgun, Mirhi, and (allegedly) Artist all claim it happens. Those are four pretty reliable sources.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Ok Mr. CommunityVoiceOfReason, how should we handle this?
multiple ways to handle it with out starting a witch hunt. Could of emailed the evidence to western wolves who would than investigate the accusations and made a proper statement. How ever the op very much so made this completely public which now is starting this witch hunt.
No way western wolves would say spades is a hacker. It is the same issue as EG, where only when people called sponsors then did they take action. Btw, I would like to make it clear that calling sponsors is idiotic, and I hope people won't do it.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Don't be silly. This was handled really well by the community. Alot of people we're on the fence, defended Spades, until the evidence started to pile against him. I don't know for certain if he is a hacker but surely you can't say its not unlikely given all the accusations from former teammates.
incorrect, some throwaway account started a shit storm and completely tarnished someone. If this was handled correctly spades would be punished if he is hacking or cleared of all charges if he isn't, but now no matter the situation this accusation whether it's true or false will haunt him.
If the person came out on their regular account say with 800+ posts would that make it better? I'm willing to bet that person inbox would be full with PM's and people would attacking that person saying they are immoral or he could have pm'd spades and asked him about it.
The police have anonymous tip lines, the military has amnesty boxes for ammo, the inspector general has anonymous numbers you can all.
You can call the police and report a crime and aren't required to give your personal information, they will still send a car to check out your claim.
Why can't a person report cheating using a throwaway account?
It doesnt give more credibility to the claim using a throwaway but as seen in this case it still was investigated because they put the infomation out there. I'm sure they got exactly what they wanted community checked everything out consensus seems to be he hacked or stream cheated no one knows who made the claim.
For me the biggest pieces of evidence are certainly the fog of war vs no fog of war. Magic and money scans, lucky placement(even if 100x), no scouting, build orders, army movement, etc, can all be "explained" by mouse malfunction, luck, dumb play, cutting corners, whatever. But I don't see any explanation to why in a bo7, there are 0 instances of looking into the fog of war, either for rallies, or scan placement, but in the course of the 10 replays from his pack that I watched, there is always at least 1 instance of it.
On June 05 2012 14:03 Klipsys wrote: Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating?
it's entirely hearsay. Theres no evidence other than one post, one person's testimony. With absence of virtually any evidence, it's definitely not worthy of a thread. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it, though.
it's also the single most dangerous allegation in the history of SC2....it could ruin a lot if it's true
Diamond (from ESV) has confirmed that trusted (his words describing them was 100%) contacts of his say its true.
I don't now anything about it personally, but if its true I'd have to know how much it goes on before passing my unduly harsh judgment.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/
that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm
The Post above TT1's is especially good. I agree that that was the strongest evidence/.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Ok Mr. CommunityVoiceOfReason, how should we handle this?
any way but this, lol
Honestly, cheating should NOT be tolerated in this community. Should spades been taken into a small room and told by a small group of people how bad he is for hacking? How else could this have gone down?
To be honest, cheating ISN'T tolerated by the community. The previous poster wasn't saying that at all. He was commenting on the community INSTANTLY jumps on and ostracises someone, without actually doing any analysis themselves. They're relying on the analysis of other people, who may or may not have ulterior motives (I don't think they do personally), but anything that anyone says will also have essences of bias in it. As cArn said before, "Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make." My personal opinion is that the analysis by CatZ and co. was done with the sole purpose of looking for hacks, and focusing on them entirely, instead of taking into account the entire game, as well as the mindset/habits of the players. I do, however, agree that the inconsistencies in the way units are moved across the map as slightly odd. Even so, I'm of the opinion that Spades' is innocent until proven guilty.
Today's been a perfect shitstorm for esports Between witchhunts and people acting after old "falling outs", not sure the truth matters (1/2)
@MartijnMumbles wrote:
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2)
Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name.
I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote: The thing is he was probably hacking for fun. I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated.
On June 05 2012 14:10 joeschmo wrote: Don't even think about confessing, spades, that's career suicide. With the amount of people who are trying to burn you, there will be that same amount defending you, also, LOL @ KOREAN STANDARD
Not confessing is what ruined him previously. Others have cheated, but Spades never admits it until it seems like it will benefit him, like he did before transitioning to SC2. Others pros like TT1 confessed etc and are trusted at this point.
On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote: The thing is he was probably hacking for fun. I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated.
Might explain why the mlg qualifiers are never held live.
On June 05 2012 14:15 phiinix wrote: For me the biggest pieces of evidence are certainly the fog of war vs no fog of war. Magic and money scans, lucky placement(even if 100x), no scouting, build orders, army movement, etc, can all be "explained" by mouse malfunction, luck, dumb play, cutting corners, whatever. But I don't see any explanation to why in a bo7, there are 0 instances of looking into the fog of war, either for rallies, or scan placement, but in the course of the 10 replays from his pack that I watched, there is always at least 1 instance of it.
That stuck out the most to me as well. I just couldn't understand how you can play like that. But I suck so...
On June 05 2012 06:55 Spades wrote: Guess ill have to play all my matches against your biggest heroes with a camera behind me seeing both my screens. So next time i do okay and still lose against a top player you wont try to destroy my career by making up bullshit.
This wouldn't be the worst idea for any player in a high stakes online tournament. Sure it's cumbersome but you can probably rotate the footage and it doesn't have to be super rez.
On June 05 2012 14:10 joeschmo wrote: Don't even think about confessing, spades, that's career suicide. With the amount of people who are trying to burn you, there will be that same amount defending you, also, LOL @ KOREAN STANDARD
Not confessing is what ruined him previously. Others have cheated, but Spades never admits it until it seems like it will benefit him, like he did before transitioning to SC2. Others pros like TT1 confessed etc and are trusted at this point.
The thing I CANT STAND is how people are now coming out of the woodwork admitting people were stream cheating and this and that to save their own ass as if they are putting on the image of: "He's probably hacking but I'm but i'm not going to flat out agree and say he's hacking".
Mihri should be ashamed. giX, being an amazing player that he is, should be ashamed. Why? Because. Where were all these statements months ago? No where to be found. Spades is now thrown under the bus and being beating like a pinata.
Fucking sickening. Granted, if he's a hacker then he's a hacker. Bottom line.
On June 05 2012 13:23 TheWorldToCome wrote: If the game vs Lucifron on Entombed Valley doesn't convince you, I dunno what will.
He scouts with his scv around the base without at all looking at the base he is scouting. He sieges at a perfect timing/position.
lol He had 0 map vision and he siege all the tanks at the edge of his natural. He is hacking 100%.
I hope you're being sarcastic, but in the event you're not, I'll explain this again.
He saw his natural being scanned, he had control of watch tower, therefore the most logical conclusion is that he's going to be attacked from the side. Sure... the attack could have went the other way, but it's not likely because the attack path chosen was the shortest. Instinctively, most players would have done the same thing and sieged up where he did. This was not the point Catz et al were trying to make. The suspicion comes from stimming maris forward to snipe vikings, but randomly moves back from fear of being killed by siege tank fire while having no idea of what was behind the fog of war.
And any pro we've seen stim forward like that realistically gets hit by atleast 1 tank shot as they're not complete robots that know exactly where the tank range ends. So backing up and not getting hit like you and others have said is completely unrealistic of a normal pro to do. Just adding on to your post to validate your claims even more :D
I'm not sure we can keep Spades on the team regardless of whether he cheated or not. Congratulations, a career ruined. Be proud (2/2)
Update from Martijn. Sort of in between a rock and a hard place. With a story going as viral as this, facts no longer really matter. It would be exceedingly hard, even if innocent, to clean up the mess made of Spades' name.
I didn't see this posted anywhere else yet so just thought I'd add it in there.
EPT
