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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I dunno why spades got all pissed off and didnt just say "hey guys, i didnt hack, this is why!" and explained how he couldnt have been hacking. I mean, he IS good at the game without the maphack, so i dont think it would be too hard for him to explain the "camera locks" and never looking into the fog right? I just think its odd that he said "WELL I COULD DEFEND MYSELF BUT IM NOT" and then used some weird responses earlier in the thread when he could have just went about this calmly.
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In regards to Spades becoming #1 GM... think about it for a sec. Did anyone ever see Spades stream during this run? And more importantly, see him stream on ladder when he was say, top 50 GM even? Now ask yourself, why would he NOT stream during this time? This was basically the best opportunity of his career to build up more viewers and get his name out, he hit #1 GM! But, he doesn't stream it at all?!? Was kind of the quietest #1 GM sitting I've ever seen... and then sort of just disappeared. Spades used to stream quite a bit too... but was always like high (rank 1) masters when he did? Not proof of anything of course but so, so suspicious...
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On June 05 2012 14:32 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:24 djshinE wrote:On June 05 2012 14:12 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote:
I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim)
2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it. Yea i wanted to focus on the gameplay stuff more but i wasnt there when they were taking notes on what they wanted to talk about so i didnt want to derail the discussion so i just went with it. There was definitely an overwhelming amount of gameplay evidence pointing to him possibly maphacking that we didnt cover and we could have gone more in depth with some of the gameplay stuff that we did cover, like i said i wasnt there when they were planning everything so i just kinda winged it cus i didnt want to interfere too much in the discussion, i went into it more as an observer. I didnt watch the replays beforehand because i wanted to go into the discussion without having any prejudgements so i could formulate my own opinions and see if what they were saying was actually legit or not, and tbh after reading frank's(Mirhi) post coupled with the overwhelming amount gameplay evidence in those games im kinda leaning over towards the witchhunt side =/ that being said im still not sure because the game sample is kinda small but its still not enought to sway me towards his side, im like 75-25 atm What exactly is keeping you from thinking he hacks 100%? How can the lack of looking into the FOV be explained? Well obviously the only way that u can prove whether or not someone hacks for certain is by having concrete evidence, i.e: he clicks something that he doesnt have vision of. The fog of war stuff that they brought up in the discussion comes extremely close to that type of evidence tho.
I think its conclusive. There is no other explanation for the fog of war stuff. He played totally differently while streaming. You just can't do that.
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On June 05 2012 14:26 Azide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:18 triforks wrote:
wow its too damn easy to maphack i just tested this....
all u gotta do is google it and it works wow how can it be that easy.... uh............. what? u dumb? why would you download a maphack........ and then tell everybody you did it.... lol
wut?
i just wanted to see how easy it is lol.
i didnt think u could just google it i thought u had to be a 1337 hacker. guess not.
(not like i will actually use it lol.) or will i?
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On June 05 2012 14:27 naux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined. Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out.
Nobody is saying it's illegal or the police should be involved. We're talking about the competitive scene policing itself so that online competition still has some credibility.
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On June 05 2012 14:31 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already. Even TT1 said he's only 75% sure.
My post was saying read the thread and look at the evidence yourself before posting, and that's it.
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On June 05 2012 14:26 Gardel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:25 StarStrider wrote:On June 05 2012 14:23 Thaniri wrote:
I kind of enjoyed how StarStrider and his 5 word posts is just adding to the complete cluster fuck that this thread seems to be. And he said he wasn't witch hunting, haha.
Guys, I do not think we need to take action against Spades, based on what I've seen it is EXTREMELY suspicious, but how can we prove it? Saying all that, he also LOST the showmatch, so unless second place also got a prize (I could be completely shooting myself in the foot, but I dont think there was one) literally nothing happened.
Now if he plays ANOTHER event with the same suspicious behaviour, or some people start reporting many ladder replays of this, then we really need to reprimand Spades and outright call him a cheater.
I don't know, I just abhor pulling out the 'Hacker Hacker!' card too fast.
I've read a lot of this thread, and do not want to be bothered quoting people, I'll just throw my 2 cents in to this whirlpool of chaos. Glad to be of entertainment to you. I thought I clarified a few things, but if you say I'm just making it more confusing, I guess I'll just stop talking. If you think your arguments are valid, then do it, noone can say otherwise.
Here is the sum total of all of my thoughts, for how much or little they are worth. Then I'm done.
1) Spades is a confirmed hacker from BW, and confirmed stream cheater from SC2. You cannot use the phrase innocent until proven guilty in this case.
2) Most of the pros who have analyzed the issue have come to the conclusion that there is too much fishiness in the replays from the showmatch as compared with the control group of the ladder game pack for it to be mere coincidence. I value their opinion on the play more highly than my own, a mere mid master leaguer, but even in my own analysis the evidence seems overwhelmingly damning.
3) Spades is doing himself no favors by attacking people who have called him out and playing the victim. If he were innocent he should let the evidence speak for itself. He should admit to his wrongs, apologize, and let the community (the only plausible jury in this case) decide how and when to move past it. He will win no favor by reacting aggressively, the same way he did when first accused and confirmed of hacking.
Thanks. Good night.
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On June 05 2012 14:32 Velocirapture wrote:
The most difficult part of this to me is how it was handled. If the best we can do when problems arise in the community is a huge spectacle of a witch hunt then something needs to be done. I do not doubt Catz and other pro's sincerity in their assessments but I have never wished for an SC2 governing body more than throughout this whole debacle. KESPA 2.0 might even be worth it if it prevents this kind of lynch mob.
tl/dr: Even guilty people deserve the dignity of due process.
+1 for your last line. I think Catz, Illusion all came in with good intentions but this has gotten out of hand
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No matter how true it looks I'd really like to believe that no one who was previously caught hacking and then allowed back into the community would do it again. Sadly this thread makes it hard to believe that
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On June 05 2012 14:34 triforks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:26 Azide wrote:On June 05 2012 14:18 triforks wrote:
wow its too damn easy to maphack i just tested this....
all u gotta do is google it and it works wow how can it be that easy.... uh............. what? u dumb? why would you download a maphack........ and then tell everybody you did it.... lol wut? i just wanted to see how easy it is lol. i didnt think u could just google it i thought u had to be a 1337 hacker. guess not. (not like i will actually use it lol.) or will i?
Just so you know you may have downloaded an older hack/version and you'll eventually get ban if Blizzards built in anti-hack picks up on it. So even testing it is a bad idea...
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On June 05 2012 14:33 rhs408 wrote:
In regards to Spades becoming #1 GM... think about it for a sec. Did anyone ever see Spades stream during this run? And more importantly, see him stream on ladder when he was say, top 50 GM even? Now ask yourself, why would he NOT stream during this time? This was basically the best opportunity of his career to build up more viewers and get his name out, he hit #1 GM! But, he doesn't stream it at all?!? Was kind of the quietest #1 GM sitting I've ever seen... and then sort of just disappeared. Not proof of anything of course but so, so suspicious...
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On June 05 2012 14:34 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:31 Gheed wrote:On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already. Even TT1 said he's only 75% sure. My post was saying read the thread and look at the evidence yourself before posting, and that's it.
Perhaps the poster does not think it his job to be judge and jury for this? He was only expressing his hope that Spades is not being wrongfully accused (and convicted). I think we should all hope that.
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I guess you could say that the problem with this picture....
![[image loading]](http://www.jmulhern.com/Terriss%20Image%203/30152.jpg)
Is that...
+ Show Spoiler +The spade isn't stuck between the pitchforks
*sunglasses*
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On June 05 2012 14:33 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:28 Nimic wrote:On June 05 2012 14:26 ghrur wrote:On June 05 2012 14:22 Nimic wrote:On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar. Which fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. Oh for crying out loud, now everyone is an expert psychologist. I know right?! Everyone is pretending like their opinion actually MATTERS. What is wrong with them? I wish everyone were as wise as you, you who put the TL mods to shame! I mean, it's like those ignorant buffoons never thought about closing this thread! And after all, nothing good came out of this at all! There was no discussion by pro-gamers, no extra evidence, no first-hand evidence from people who knew Spades personally, nothing! Damn that stupid OP who thought he had EVIDENCE. What an idiot. I feel like you're trying to tell me something. I worship your feet, great Nimic. You are my one and only God. I have no other false idols. Use your great wisdom to guide us in this worthless community toward a path of righteousness. Clearly these incompetent TL mods cannot do it without you.
Oh, stop it, you! 
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On June 05 2012 14:37 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:34 las91 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:31 Gheed wrote:On June 05 2012 14:30 las91 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:28 m2e wrote:
Haven't read through this thread much but I can only hope these accusations are 100% true otherwise the "community" has ruined another persons career... If you haven't read the thread then don't post.... This is a fairly heavily argued(for both sides) thread that Spades did in fact hack in a showmatch vs Lucifron, and has had multiple pros and community members weigh in on the evidence already. Even TT1 said he's only 75% sure. My post was saying read the thread and look at the evidence yourself before posting, and that's it. Perhaps the poster does not think it his job to be judge and jury for this? He was only expressing his hope that Spades is not being wrongfully accused (and convicted). I think we should all hope that.
I think most reasonable people in the thread are hoping for that, but most reasonable people are allowing for the possibility of guilt as well. In any case, I can't handle this thread anymore as it has gotten ridiculously out of hand, what happens happens.
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On June 05 2012 14:32 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:31 Achilles17 wrote:On June 05 2012 14:27 naux wrote:On June 05 2012 14:20 riff wrote:On June 05 2012 14:13 naux wrote:
The thing is he was probably hacking for fun.
I use to hack all the time for fun in CS 1.6 and i played for cal-invite team but only time i hacked was just to pub never scrimming nor matches but also to get a better understanding of the game
Nothing was on the line and he lost anyways, the out burst of people in this community should calm down, he doesnt have the admit he hacked because we all know he did its so blunt he did, also who cares he wasnt hacking for money.
The bigger problem is that one poster talking about koreans cheating online, there's major online tournaments and qualifications just imagine how much they cheated. So what you're saying is you're the little shit who was ruining my pub experience back in CS 1.6? Cheating needs to be discouraged, period. The first high level player to be caught using hacks needs to be made an example of. Whether that player turns out to be Spades is yet to be determined. Yeah maybe i was, so what? i bet you anything 50% of the people here on teamliquid has cheated or hacked in any way shape or form, people make it such a big deal i bought the game i can do whatever i want with it. If he wanted to hack let him hack and to the people who are throwing Spades under the car, its kinda sad that his former teammates had to rat him out. It's sad that you think hacking/cheating is okay. Talk about being part of the problem. Agreed. Have your kid take steroids to get good at a sport while your at it.
I assume nobody remembers (or was around at all to know) that NaDa used to maphack for quite a while online. Granted, it was for a real-time understanding of various timings, and he played mostly with people he knew (who would probably know he was MHing).
Hacking doesn't have to be a big deal; but there's no way in which hacking can help the community as a whole, ever.
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On June 05 2012 14:36 Megakenny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:34 triforks wrote:On June 05 2012 14:26 Azide wrote:On June 05 2012 14:18 triforks wrote:
wow its too damn easy to maphack i just tested this....
all u gotta do is google it and it works wow how can it be that easy.... uh............. what? u dumb? why would you download a maphack........ and then tell everybody you did it.... lol wut? i just wanted to see how easy it is lol. i didnt think u could just google it i thought u had to be a 1337 hacker. guess not. (not like i will actually use it lol.) or will i? Just so you know you may have downloaded an older hack/version and you'll eventually get ban if Blizzards built in anti-hack picks up on it. So even testing it is a bad idea...
ya i just used it once for a short time to see if it was real. lol. its pretty dumb how easy it is tho...
i used to think that only very few map hackers are out there cuz they gotta have pro hack skills
but any newb can google it and be hacking in 30 seconds lol
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On June 05 2012 14:39 Walitgon wrote:I guess you could say that the problem with this picture.... Is that... + Show Spoiler +The spade isn't stuck between the pitchforks
*sunglasses*
A cookie for you, sir.
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On June 05 2012 14:30 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:29 Shaddar wrote:
Whats damning for me now is that Spades didnt actually respond to the fog of war or scan accusations as far as I could see (please correct me if im wrong) and just started going on about how people were making things up and the whole world was against him. It's been shown that the scan accusations are false. I would like to hear his input on the fog of war stuff, though.
They are not "false." They have just been shown not to be 100% conclusive evidence. However it is still suspicious as fuck that he would scan that particular way multiple times when a) he never does it that way, b) it makes zero sense to do it that way, c) that's exactly how it would show up in the replay if he was indeed hacking.
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On June 05 2012 14:39 Walitgon wrote:I guess you could say that the problem with this picture.... Is that... + Show Spoiler +The spade isn't stuck between the pitchforks
*sunglasses*
f**ing lol'd!
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EPT
