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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:50 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Literally the only thing that could make this thread better was if drolets (OP) turned out to be... Spades himself. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNN. Oh I hope it does. | ||
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naux
Canada738 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:46 solidbebe wrote: These are tournaments for real life money, do you really want people hacking in that kind of stuff? It wasnt a tournament get your facts straight it was a showmatch he LOST so he didnt gain anything from it he plays ladder and map hacks so what? not like his doing it in qualifications into tournaments people stream cheat idra and mkp all the time, wheres your pitch forks for that? its the same thing as "hacking/cheating" | ||
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everyone
United States91 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:45 naux wrote: Should i be part of the system to throw people under the bus? I use to hack in CS 1.6 in pubs, never matches and scrims but i knew players who done it. They use to be part of complexity should i start naming there names? Yes! Carnage! Carnage! | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:51 naux wrote: It wasnt a tournament get your facts straight it was a showmatch he LOST so he didnt gain anything from it he plays ladder and map hacks so what? not like his doing it in qualifications into tournaments people stream cheat idra and mkp all the time, wheres your pitch forks for that? its the same thing as "hacking/cheating" I don't think anyone is going to agree with your silly arguments. Nobody likes streamcheaters. Nobody like hackers. It's not that complex. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:46 ImNightmare wrote: Depends, first you need to get a Vod, than you need to scout if he sees anything. Don't forget, he was the man who predicted 2 rax all ins from marineking and went pool first when some terrans went proxy 2 rax in a gsl last year. But he might be stream cheating since he seems to be getting old, probably needs map hack too. Yes, I am being sarcastic  Accusing someone of hacking is career ending. Even if other pro's think your play is 'fishy', that should not be enough to get thrown under the bus. The community and players should have higher standards than that. Evidence needs to be rock solid before you destroy someone's career. That should be a courtesy that extends to all players. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
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KingVietKong
United States170 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:50 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Literally the only thing that could make this thread better was if drolets (OP) turned out to be... Spades himself. That would basically be Inception: Starcraft edition. Or... Fight Club maybe. Not sure. At this point I'm just wondering how the randomly brought up Leenock accusation (sans evidence) did not get this thread re-closed until further development. Even if that were true it was just sort of... man, let's just say watching this whole thing is like watching a rural village get napalmed. Not a lot of clarity going on. Lot of accusations. Burnt peasants running amok. | ||
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Diizzy
United States828 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
What I do care about is the repositioning of armies, "shadowboxing", where he is obviously reacting to units he cannot see. That .01 inch unsiege-siege was incredibly funny vs theognis. | ||
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:53 Defacer wrote: Accusing someone of hacking is career ending. Even if other pro's think your play is 'fishy', that should not be enough to get thrown under the bus. The community and players should have higher standards than that. Evidence needs to be rock solid before you destroy someone's career. That should be a courtesy that extends to all players. I agree, but don't you agree, that its weird a player plays most of the time sending commands on his minimap and than suddenly in streamed matches clicks on the area and selects it in first view instead of the minimap? I would say that's more than fishy. | ||
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kellymilkies
Singapore1393 Posts
He did slack off playing poker but when he was playing SC2 he was practising against people in the house and also I do recall him playing some online matches but he never ever stream cheated. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:44 Defacer wrote: I missed the analysis of Catz, unfortunately ... However, I think now that Catz and Drewbie has basically used this e-drama to boost his stream numbers, maybe he should do the courtesy of posting 50 of HIS replays for analysis. I'm sure we could find plenty of instances were Catz benefitted from a blind counter, random/lucky scouting, or an oddball cheese that would fail in most circumstances. I don't think Catz is a stream cheater, but I do think there is a certain kind/style of player that relies more on activity, instinct, 'loose' play and luck than careful planning, strategy or even logical decision making. Starcraft is a fast game, like speed chess, and it's easy to analyze a replay and find decisions that 'don't make sense' but still lead to success. BTW, last week I saw Nestea intercept a hit squad of lings, without the benefit of vision or proper scouting. Is he a stream cheater or hacker too? It wasn't just Catz who found it suspicious. Drewbie and Illusion, both Terran players also thought that he played extremely weird. TT1 who had been impartial prior to that and never saw the replays before hand was really suspicious of some of the things Spades did (eg unsieging whole armies to intercept and army without having vision of it.) They also compared some of those "fishy" replays to some of his ladder replays and saw so many strange things that he did (ie not looking into the fog of war when issuing rallies and scanning, not looking at scouting SCV, scouting but never actually having vision of the 2nd gas). | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:55 kellymilkies wrote: For the record, when I was living in the GOM house. I never saw spades cheat or stream cheat or anything. He did slack off playing poker but when he was playing SC2 he was practising against people in the house and also I do recall him playing some online matches but he never ever stream cheated. Did anyone stream cheat? | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
First off, all CatZ and co. ever did was to fuel more discussion in this thread. It seemed like they prepared all the notes that signifies certain timing where Spades seemed like hacking. From my point of view, everything Spades did was justifiable. For example, the entombed valley game where Spades was allegedly hacking. Magic scans, spot on movements to tip of natural, stimming the marines back etc. To be very honest, everyone prepares for a showmatch. EVERYONE. It simply no surprise that Spades might have taken some time analysing the strategies and moves that lucifron would do. He might have planned a build that counters lucifrons, and he might be certain that he would use such a build against him that game. Therefore, his only information he would need would be to find his base. Next, they claimed Spades to have 'Flash senses' when he moved his tanks to the bottom of his nat. At this point of time, he had the middle watchtower. Therefore, it was right to only claim that his move was clever, as lucifron could only attack from that angle. Marines at his nat in case of drops. Sounds reasonable to me. Lastly, those 'suspicious' marine stims. I have seen it many, many times in GSL games. They stim within some distance to kill vikings and run away to avoid tanks. Except, those tanks were positioned too far back. And, it is pretty obvious that lucifron seiges up when he saw Spade's marines. That doom drop and the 'magic scan' was probably due to nerves. If you have seen his other games, he would usually scan the area he stims into. Similarly, he did that. However, he only didn't look at it this time. CatZ's stream felt very biased. It seemed like they were certain he wad hacking, as they were throwing some words around, giving people an idea that he really hacked. However, the only significant proof over here is that he did not look into the fog of war at any time, unlike his usual ladder games. This is the only suspicious area I could find. The rest could be debunked really easily. I totally disprove of such a method for weeding out hackers/cheaters even if they did it. The consequences are very dire as their reputation will be totally tarnished. They will always be referred as cheaters, hackers or whatnot. Even if they were proven innocent,there will be no way they could come back as people would always refer them as suspected cheaters. This got to stop. TL mods should ban anyone making a din over here, as the consequences are very dire. Similar to how you will be outcasted from society as long as you had served jail sentence, but was proven innocent in the end. Edit: fixed spelling mistakes. | ||
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fatalfirecrotch
13 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:53 Defacer wrote: Accusing someone of hacking is career ending. Even if other pro's think your play is 'fishy', that should not be enough to get thrown under the bus. The community and players should have higher standards than that. Evidence needs to be rock solid before you destroy someone's career. That should be a courtesy that extends to all players. The problem is how do you gather evidence without the community knowing/helping when there is no governing organization. There really is no other way. It sucks, but that is just how it is right now. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:53 Defacer wrote: Accusing someone of hacking is career ending. Even if other pro's think your play is 'fishy', that should not be enough to get thrown under the bus. The community and players should have higher standards than that. Evidence needs to be rock solid before you destroy someone's career. That should be a courtesy that extends to all players. Go and watch Catz's stream where not only Catz, but Drewbie, Illusion and TT1 all agree that Spades was hacking. And then read his former team manager's post saying that Spades would hack in the Reign house. And explain how in season 5 he completely fell out of GM to mid masters and then in season 6 he became #1 in NA. Its pretty rock solid evidence at this point. Also, Catz, Drewbie, Illusion and TT1 went over the replays for about 3 hours before they streamed. It wasn't randomly done. | ||
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Arun
United States56 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:54 Diizzy wrote: yea a guy maphacking lost a show match when they are about evenly skill wise. maphack wouldve put spades in a huge advantage.this doesnt make sense. i stand by spades. <3 Even skill level? Please visit liquipedia and compare their achievements; your statement does not hold weight. | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:51 naux wrote: It wasnt a tournament get your facts straight it was a showmatch he LOST so he didnt gain anything from it he plays ladder and map hacks so what? not like his doing it in qualifications into tournaments people stream cheat idra and mkp all the time, wheres your pitch forks for that? its the same thing as "hacking/cheating" Spades lost, but it's not like he was trying to lose the showmatch. I'm sure if he could win (without revealing his hacking ways too much) he would've, whereupon he would've gained quite a bit of fame and followers, considering the respect Lucifron gets as one of the best foreign Terrans. If you really think it's OK to cheat in ladder or whatever then you just fundamentally have an irreconcilable viewpoint with the vast majority of the SC2 community. The fact is that it's not OK to do so, according to basically all authorities within SC2 that matter (tournament runners, and the wider community). If someone who's actually known in the community in any sense stream cheated idra or MKP, they would get a pretty similar reaction I think. However, the people who do that are either a) anonymous assholes who do it for laughs and no one really knows who they are to punish them or b) people who are known for doing that, and are already hated/can't do anything further to (CombatEX, Deezer, etc.). If you have evidence of some known & somewhat respected player cheating, then I'm sure you'd get a similar reception to what Spades here is getting. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:44 Defacer wrote: I missed the analysis of Catz, unfortunately ... However, I think now that Catz and Drewbie has basically used this e-drama to boost his stream numbers, maybe he should do the courtesy of posting 50 of HIS replays for analysis. I'm sure we could find plenty of instances were Catz benefitted from a blind counter, random/lucky scouting, or an oddball cheese that would fail in most circumstances. I don't think Catz is a stream cheater, but I do think there is a certain kind/style of player that relies more on activity, instinct, 'loose' play and luck than careful planning, strategy or even logical decision making. Starcraft is a fast game, like speed chess, and it's easy to analyze a replay and find decisions that 'don't make sense' but still lead to success. BTW, last week I saw Nestea intercept a hit squad of lings, without the benefit of vision or proper scouting. Is he a stream cheater or hacker too? Why do you feel qualified to criticize CatZ over something you don't know anything about? Your very first sentence states you never even saw the analysis. The rest of your post has very little to do with what was actually covered in the stream and the reasons for them accusing Spades of hacking -- it's just broad assumption. Just... why? | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
On June 05 2012 14:21 caradoc wrote: Spades is attacking what he perceives as a character vulnerability of Gix, --a place he thinks would cause the most emotional distress, in a really public way, rather than addressing the arguments against him on their own merit. This basically says compulsive liar to me, and it fits with a history of denial and has decided the whole thing for me. Funny when gix has nothing to gain by making that story up. | ||
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