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I have been very disturbed by numerous posters in the past week acting as if Racist comments are acceptable and that those who are offended by such comments should just get over it. Racist comments are NOT acceptable. End of Story. As a community this should be made quite clear. Does Team Liquid allow posters to make racist comments? No, because they understand how the real world works.
If the sponsors put pressure on teams in reaction to notifications of inappropriate behaviour by sponsored players, then that is confirmation in itself that the sponsors realise in todays modern commercial world being seen to be soft on racism is commercial suicide. If the sponsors did not agree that certain players were acting inappropriately then they would not have reacted by leaning on the certain teams to take action. Simply put, it is not the whistle-blowing/notifying the sponsors that is damaging e-sports, what is damaging is the unacceptable behaviour of certain players that is incompatible with a professional environment. If the players exercised self-restraint in their words and actions then the sponsors would not have any problem whatsoever.
Racist abuse is taboo. End of story. You can disagree or object on philosophical grounds that this should not be the case. But it IS the case, especially in America. There is no sane company that would take the negative PR of being seen to condone or tactitly support racist behaviour by it's representatives. Certain players may hold certain personal views that using racist language is fine but those views will never be endorsed by a company these days.
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On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:35 Dosey wrote:
Then why not contact Quantic, let them know about the issue and in the message you can put your threat (because we all know you like to feel important with your threats) that if you don't see some sort of response you WILL go to the sponsor and force their hand? Wouldn't that be just as effective?
How is it that this has devolved from an actual discussion, to the whistle blowers going into semantics of the wording used by the OP...?
Guess they have to get their win in one way or another. Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really? All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE"
your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important.
please try again
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I don't know why so many people are trying to impose their own views and believes onto others.
You feel that these racial slurs are not a big deal and that people offended by it should of taken other actions? Sure but that is your views. But others offended by it have every rights to to contact sponsors if they seem fit.
You feel that it's hurting e-sport? Cool, but realize, that not everyone has the same mindset as you to make e-sport grow. There are many many people who watches SC for what it is, as an entertainment, to make THEMSELVES entertained and comfortable. They are not obligated to help e-sport grow and have every right to voice their opinions to anyone they seem fit.
Seriously, as others have said, if you don't do any wrong to begin with, no one can point fingers at you. The only one that is ultimately hurting e-sport are these players themselves.
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I'm troubled by the mostly-unquestioned assumption ITT that promoting ESPORTS is more important than trying to build a community that adheres to basic norms of human decency. I'd much rather have a community that wasn't constantly calling people gooks and fags and bragging about how hard their units rape where it was hard to find good content than the reverse.
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On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:35 Dosey wrote:
Then why not contact Quantic, let them know about the issue and in the message you can put your threat (because we all know you like to feel important with your threats) that if you don't see some sort of response you WILL go to the sponsor and force their hand? Wouldn't that be just as effective?
How is it that this has devolved from an actual discussion, to the whistle blowers going into semantics of the wording used by the OP...?
Guess they have to get their win in one way or another. Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really? All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE"
Think of what would pressure someone more:
Both are legit forms of pressuring someone.Who are you to tell people who they should talk to when they have a complaint?
Stop with the strawman "They all do it because ego issues".
And how do you know that people didn't go to EG or Quantic and after seeing some lack of response they didn't contact the sponsors?
Both EG and Quantic could have responded to those issues but they took to long\ignored it. Did they have little time? Yeah, but unfortunately thats how things work, customers are unforgiving.
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I personally dont care about what language people use on their streams or casts, and i dont care about racism at all, words are just words.
The only reason why i would jump on an opportunity to call someone out for their 'mistakes' is because I am jelous of their life style; I have to work a boring dead-end 9-5 and they get to play sc2 all day. Yeah life isnt fair, but whos gunna stop me from 'witch hunting' ? Thats right, no one.
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I think a great point is the one that says "If we keep lynching our pro gamers, the remaining ones will be too afraid to interact with the community in a meaningful and honest way"
I'd rather have some awkward, ignorant, and even racists comments occasionally than have a player base that either says nothing or just the "right things" all the time.
I guess as long as the mob is only going after "racism", it could still be fine, but its a slippery slope.
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On May 08 2012 03:05 ishyishy wrote:
I personally dont care about what language people use on their streams or casts, and i dont care about racism at all, words are just words.
The only reason why i would jump on an opportunity to call someone out for their 'mistakes' is because I am jelous of their life style; I have to work a boring dead-end 9-5 and they get to play sc2 all day. Yeah life isnt fair, but whos gunna stop me from 'witch hunting' ? Thats right, no one.
cool. now go find a random black person and drop the N bomb. Then say they should get over it because 'wrods are just words'. if you video tape it and put it on youtube then I believe you.
otherwise, you are a liar.
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I feel like from now on teamliquid should just close witchunt threads immediately because no good ever comes of them. They should just decide what to do internally or something. Because people dont really care about destiny using racist language they cared because someone took the time to make a thread about it. He has been using language that would be seen as offensive to some for a very long time.
All the witchhunt threads ever do is get sponsors e-mailed and I know thats something smart people, people who care about e-sports, and people who actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening.
Also to the people saying that destiny was being racist and it had to be done. + Show Spoiler +Do you think that + Show Spoiler + noun
1.
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. he beleives that one race is superiour to another? Do you think that destiny + Show Spoiler + unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. is prejudice against a certain race of people? Do you think that he wont befriend someone of another race? Is there any reason to believe this? Or do you think that he was being offensive? Because I think that is the word a lot of people are looking for when they use the word racist to describe destiny.
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On May 08 2012 03:06 dsousa wrote:
I think a great point is the one that says "If we keep lynching our pro gamers, the remaining ones will be too afraid to interact with the community in a meaningful and honest way"
I'd rather have some awkward, ignorant, and even racists comments occasionally than have a player base that either says nothing or just the "right things" all the time.
I guess as long as the mob is only going after "racism", it could still be fine, but its a slippery slope.
Don't want to be lynched? Don't go around insulting people. Seems pretty easy no?
I don't know why saying "awkward, ignorant, and even racists comments occasionally" relates to having a personality or to saying stuff. Plenty of other people (even in real life!) can interact quite fine without the use of "awkward, ignorant, and even racists comments occasionally"(well maybe not awkward but I don't see many people throwing a fit when someone is awkward)
And slippery slope arguments rarely work.
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On May 08 2012 03:10 gogatorsfoster wrote:I feel like from now on teamliquid should just close witchunt threads immediately because no good ever comes of them. They should just decide what to do internally or something. Because people dont really care about destiny using racist language they cared because someone took the time to make a thread about it. He has been using language that would be seen as offensive to some for a very long time. All the witchhunt threads ever do is get sponsors e-mailed and I know thats something smart people, people who care about e-sports, and people who actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening. Also to the people saying that destiny was being racist and it had to be done. + Show Spoiler +Do you think that + Show Spoiler + noun
1.
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. he beleives that one race is superiour to another? Do you think that destiny + Show Spoiler + unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. is prejudice against a certain race of people? Do you think that he wont befriend someone of another race? Is there any reason to believe this? Or do you think that he was being offensive? Because I think that is the word a lot of people are looking for when they use the word racist to describe destiny.
Destiny may not be a 'racist' but it doesn't mean he can casually use racial slurs. or are you saying we should tolerate racial slurs?
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On May 08 2012 03:10 gogatorsfoster wrote:I feel like from now on teamliquid should just close witchunt threads immediately because no good ever comes of them. They should just decide what to do internally or something. Because people dont really care about destiny using racist language they cared because someone took the time to make a thread about it. He has been using language that would be seen as offensive to some for a very long time. All the witchhunt threads ever do is get sponsors e-mailed and I know thats something smart people, people who care about e-sports, and people who actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening. Also to the people saying that destiny was being racist and it had to be done. + Show Spoiler +Do you think that + Show Spoiler + noun
1.
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. he beleives that one race is superiour to another? Do you think that destiny + Show Spoiler + unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. is prejudice against a certain race of people? Do you think that he wont befriend someone of another race? Is there any reason to believe this? Or do you think that he was being offensive? Because I think that is the word a lot of people are looking for when they use the word racist to describe destiny.
You've got yourself a bit mixed up there I think. These threads are made and people post in them for hundreds of pages cumulatively because people really do care if this type of language is being used. How long someone has been being offensive does not change the fact that they are being offensive.
You don't have any new insight to why it's killing e-sports or some ridiculous strawman over emailing sponsors over your unhappiness with a particular person's ignorant use of racist language, so don't act as if you're superior for some understanding that the rest of us don't.
And not many people are arguing that Destiny/Orb are actually racist, but it begs the question, "Why use that kind of language in the first place if you don't want people thinking that?"
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I have been very encouraged by the behaviour of the community of late. These "witch-hunts" are simply actions that would be taken by any community that has recognition and limelight. The type of behaviour exhibited by Destiny and Orb would never go unnoticed or unpunished in any other field that relies heavily on sponsorship dollars for the simple reason that the offended parties will always go to the sponsors, attempting to make people feel guilty for doing so will never work when someone is truly offended/angry.
In short these are the necessary growing pains that accompany maturing into a real arena for business.
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On May 08 2012 03:10 gogatorsfoster wrote:I feel like from now on teamliquid should just close witchunt threads immediately because no good ever comes of them. They should just decide what to do internally or something. Because people dont really care about destiny using racist language they cared because someone took the time to make a thread about it. He has been using language that would be seen as offensive to some for a very long time. All the witchhunt threads ever do is get sponsors e-mailed and I know thats something smart people, people who care about e-sports, and people who actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening. Also to the people saying that destiny was being racist and it had to be done. + Show Spoiler +Do you think that + Show Spoiler + noun
1.
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. he beleives that one race is superiour to another? Do you think that destiny + Show Spoiler + unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. is prejudice against a certain race of people? Do you think that he wont befriend someone of another race? Is there any reason to believe this? Or do you think that he was being offensive? Because I think that is the word a lot of people are looking for when they use the word racist to describe destiny.
So you want TL to stop any kind of discussion on topics the community might be interested in because......?
Stopping discussion and debate just so that the people in power can decide has never been a good thing.And LMAO stop with the stupid dehumanizing of people you don't agree with. "smart people, people who care about e-sports, and people who actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening" so I guess all people who don't agree with your methods are "dumb people, people who don't care about e-sports, and people who don't actually understand the way e-sports works do not want happening"
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On May 07 2012 20:20 Deimos0 wrote:
That's the point - racism in any form isn't acceptable, so why should we act like nothing happened?
Racism... in any form.....
I guess you just need an arbiter to decide whats racism and what isn't. That's the problem.
the arbiter is the weakness in your plan.
Freedom is the better option. No biased arbiter, you control what you watch and accept as true.
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On May 08 2012 03:06 dsousa wrote:
I think a great point is the one that says "If we keep lynching our pro gamers, the remaining ones will be too afraid to interact with the community in a meaningful and honest way"
I'd rather have some awkward, ignorant, and even racists comments occasionally than have a player base that either says nothing or just the "right things" all the time.
I guess as long as the mob is only going after "racism", it could still be fine, but its a slippery slope.
You mean pro gamers will start to be afraid to use racism or sexist language in public? I'm fine with that.
I'm pretty sure the main problem isn't swearing. Most of us say "fuck" "shit" and "bitch" all the time, especially out frustrations. I doubt anyone would complain and even those that do, I'm pretty sure most sponsors wouldn't give a crap about one or two unreasonable complaints as they would just take it as trolls.
But when it comes to being racist or similar language, there is zero reason to ever use them. It doesn't even make you cool or anything, it only shows immaturity and lack of education. And in any industry that relies on the public, you should definitely expect backlashes for using them, no question about it. If Kobe Bryant or Tom Cruise drops the F bomb during a casual interview during their personal life, no one would give a shit. But if they were to be racist even at a fast food, and someone overheard it and publicized it, then you should definitely expect some shit-storm. This is no different, and it's the player's fault for using that language in public when representing a company.
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Good thing this thread showed up, can't not have a thread where people fight back and forth about one incident of slight racism blown out of all reasonable proportions.
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On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:35 Dosey wrote:
Then why not contact Quantic, let them know about the issue and in the message you can put your threat (because we all know you like to feel important with your threats) that if you don't see some sort of response you WILL go to the sponsor and force their hand? Wouldn't that be just as effective?
How is it that this has devolved from an actual discussion, to the whistle blowers going into semantics of the wording used by the OP...?
Guess they have to get their win in one way or another. Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really? All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again
Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer.
Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors?
And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor.
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On May 08 2012 03:18 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:20 Deimos0 wrote:
That's the point - racism in any form isn't acceptable, so why should we act like nothing happened? Racism... in any form..... I guess you just need an arbiter to decide whats racism and what isn't. That's the problem. the arbiter is the weakness in your plan. Freedom is the better option. No biased arbiter, you control what you watch and accept as true.
The arbiter in this case is the sponsors. They looked at what has been reported to them and deemed it unacceptable. Feel free to complain to them.
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On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:35 Dosey wrote:
Then why not contact Quantic, let them know about the issue and in the message you can put your threat (because we all know you like to feel important with your threats) that if you don't see some sort of response you WILL go to the sponsor and force their hand? Wouldn't that be just as effective?
How is it that this has devolved from an actual discussion, to the whistle blowers going into semantics of the wording used by the OP...?
Guess they have to get their win in one way or another. Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really? All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor.
why didnt I answer? I think you forgot to read the actual thread because I have already answered your question multiple times.
I'm sorry but I dont feel the need to type them up again for you.
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