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On May 03 2012 09:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:22 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:18 Ace1123 wrote:On May 03 2012 09:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:14 Toppp wrote:
not to mention that a queen popping out with a transfuse and TWO injects is fucking ridiculous.. if it passes zerg will be unstoppable. Erm, 50 energy is 1 transfuse OR two injects. You also cant inject the same thing twice which nullifies its ability to inject twice. Or 2 Creep tumors, Oh I imagine the pain if this happens  Not 2 creep tumors! The humanity! You guys act like this would be absolutely crazy for creep when zergs already make an extra queen that makes a creep tumor every 40 seconds. The fact that Zergs already make 4 queens anyway makes the change even worse...coz it multiplies. Not to mention it's also a buff to earlier macrohatches if you choose to not blow all that energy on creep. Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven.
Make a raven and get it fungaled with Infestor or Kill by muta? Seriously it is hard if the army is there it is not like the observer which is perma-cloak
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On May 03 2012 09:31 SC_Ghost wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread is believed to be a viable fix for certain pressure, I feel like it's more about larvae management and scouting (overlord placement) rather than creep spread. I mean the extra early queen that's used for creep spread currently is viable at fending off small numbers of Hellions. Again, all my personal opinion.
It's helpful for obvious reasons against any sort of air play where you're using queens to defend. Beyond that, most Zerg units move 50-75% faster on creep, which is a HUGE deal, especially with melee units. With the current TvZ build I do, if I see four queens, I transition into something else because I know that I can't push across that much creep and do any damage, it's just not feasible. Now, any zerg with decent mechanics is gonna have that much creep with just 2-3 queens, as well as more larva to spare because they don't have to cut injects to spread their creep.
Hopefully there's an SotG soon so that the guys can explain how absurdly overpowered this change would be.
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United States7483 Posts
The overlord change is fantastic, the queen change is massive overkill and is going to be too good. The observer change is good as well.
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On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:34 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:29 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:22 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:18 Ace1123 wrote:On May 03 2012 09:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:14 Toppp wrote:
not to mention that a queen popping out with a transfuse and TWO injects is fucking ridiculous.. if it passes zerg will be unstoppable. Erm, 50 energy is 1 transfuse OR two injects. You also cant inject the same thing twice which nullifies its ability to inject twice. Or 2 Creep tumors, Oh I imagine the pain if this happens Not 2 creep tumors! The humanity! You guys act like this would be absolutely crazy for creep when zergs already make an extra queen that makes a creep tumor every 40 seconds. The fact that Zergs already make 4 queens anyway makes the change even worse...coz it multiplies. Not to mention it's also a buff to earlier macrohatches if you choose to not blow all that energy on creep. Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven. You don't need 4 Queens to deal with hellions, especially if you Sim City well like people like Leenock. You get 4 for creep / future injects and banshees. You don't just "make a raven", especially early on. 200 gas is A LOT. Not to mention how vulnerable it will be if Z techs muta. No Z techs muta anymore, dont kid yourself. Even idra doesnt use mutas anymore. Yeah coz certain decisions like never making Mutas are carved in stone. There's a reason Terran only clears creep with small hit squads of marines with scans. Wondering around the map with a Raven before you get a critical mass of marine tank is suicidal. Because a zerg is clearly going to see a raven and instantly think, "I MUST GET MUTAS TO DEAL WITH THIS RAVEN!" And the reason terran clears creep with small hit squads is because going deep onto creep is harder than being off creep. If you have a raven out, you can prevent the creep from getting farther out, ever.
Clearing creep isn't an event that will only happen once every 5 games. It's a staple fight for and denial of map control.
Just like how no one used reactor hellion or 4 queen openings a year + ago, people's anticipations of opponents actions and adjusted responses will change.
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These changes increase the the defensive capabilities of zerg and protoss, making it even harder for terran to make their midgame deathblow that they are dependent on
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Toss and Zerg buffs?
Blizzard is making it harder and harder for us Terrans to stick with it.
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On May 03 2012 09:40 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:34 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:29 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:22 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:18 Ace1123 wrote:On May 03 2012 09:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Erm, 50 energy is 1 transfuse OR two injects. You also cant inject the same thing twice which nullifies its ability to inject twice. Or 2 Creep tumors, Oh I imagine the pain if this happens Not 2 creep tumors! The humanity! You guys act like this would be absolutely crazy for creep when zergs already make an extra queen that makes a creep tumor every 40 seconds. The fact that Zergs already make 4 queens anyway makes the change even worse...coz it multiplies. Not to mention it's also a buff to earlier macrohatches if you choose to not blow all that energy on creep. Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven. You don't need 4 Queens to deal with hellions, especially if you Sim City well like people like Leenock. You get 4 for creep / future injects and banshees. You don't just "make a raven", especially early on. 200 gas is A LOT. Not to mention how vulnerable it will be if Z techs muta. No Z techs muta anymore, dont kid yourself. Even idra doesnt use mutas anymore. Yeah coz certain decisions like never making Mutas are carved in stone. There's a reason Terran only clears creep with small hit squads of marines with scans. Wondering around the map with a Raven before you get a critical mass of marine tank is suicidal. Because a zerg is clearly going to see a raven and instantly think, "I MUST GET MUTAS TO DEAL WITH THIS RAVEN!" And the reason terran clears creep with small hit squads is because going deep onto creep is harder than being off creep. If you have a raven out, you can prevent the creep from getting farther out, ever. Clearing creep isn't an event that will only happen once every 5 games. It's a staple fight for and denial of map control. Just like how no one used reactor hellion or 4 queen openings a year + ago, people's anticipations of opponents actions and adjusted responses will change.
What reactor hellion has been popular since like beta. It went away for a little bit but not that long.
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On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it.
Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE.
EDIT: Creep generated per tumor won't be increased sure, but total creep increased is A LOT. It's basically a +6 in EVERY CYCLE of spreading.
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On May 03 2012 09:42 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE.
They spread creep more quickly to an extent, by the time you have 2-3 in an area you will be waiting on the cooldown on the tumors themselves (and the energy on the queens) to lay more creep tumors. There is no benefit in having 6 down in an area outside of it being more to kill when scanned.
You are not demonstrating your knowledge of creep spread too well.
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Like overlord. Makes it a bit easier to scout all-ins.
Dislike queen and observer. Queen change isn't necessary, queens are already really good. Observer change isn't necessary, P players should have to make a choice between observer build time and building more robos.
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On May 03 2012 09:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:42 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE. They spread creep more quickly to an extent, by the time you have 2-3 in an area you will be waiting on the cooldown on the tumors themselves (and the energy on the queens) to lay more creep tumors. There is no benefit in having 6 down in an area outside of it being more to kill when scanned. You are not demonstrating your knowledge of creep spread too well.
.......
Do you spread all your tumors in one direction? Obviously no.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:41 FinalForm wrote:
These changes increase the the defensive capabilities of zerg and protoss, making it even harder for terran to make their midgame deathblow that they are dependent on
Terrans aren't reliant on a midgame deathblow, watch terrans like MKP or Thorzain play out to the late game with constant aggression, just doing trades and never killing their opponent and getting way and way ahead doing it.
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On May 03 2012 09:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:42 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE. They spread creep more quickly to an extent, by the time you have 2-3 in an area you will be waiting on the cooldown on the tumors themselves (and the energy on the queens) to lay more creep tumors. There is no benefit in having 6 down in an area outside of it being more to kill when scanned. You are not demonstrating your knowledge of creep spread too well.
Once you have enough tumors in one place that the creep spreads to the limit in ~20 seconds, you can start staggering which ones you move forward so that you can advance tumors every 20 seconds or so instead of 45, which effectively doubles the rate at which it spreads. You don't see players do it much because it's hard to have that many tumors out right now, but it'll be pretty easy after this change.
If I didn't explain it too clearly, basically you only advance half your tumors at a time, so there's two groups on separate cooldowns. You spend less time with tumors sitting their on cooldown and not spreading any more creep, essentially.
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Wait, did I understood the change wrong?
Queens start with 50 energy with this change no? SO they can inject and creep or transfuse with their starting energy no?
Why are people acting as if Queens now will start with 100 energy?
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On May 03 2012 09:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:42 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE. They spread creep more quickly to an extent, by the time you have 2-3 in an area you will be waiting on the cooldown on the tumors themselves (and the energy on the queens) to lay more creep tumors. There is no benefit in having 6 down in an area outside of it being more to kill when scanned. You are not demonstrating your knowledge of creep spread too well.
You don't need to spread 6 of them at the same time, you can spread one after one to maximize the creep area. You use these tumor while waiting for the other one to off cooldown, like you suppose to do as a zerg, you know.
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On May 03 2012 09:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:24 Toppp wrote:On May 03 2012 09:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:14 Toppp wrote:
not to mention that a queen popping out with a transfuse and TWO injects is fucking ridiculous.. if it passes zerg will be unstoppable. Erm, 50 energy is 1 transfuse OR two injects. You also cant inject the same thing twice which nullifies its ability to inject twice. I know.. i meant a queen will pop out with both a transfuse and/or 2 injects.. I know the queen change will never be passed.. but the fact that they even consider adding 50 energy queens makes me worry... No, it means a queen will pop out with a transfuse OR 2 injects. and/or implies they can do both, which costs 100 energy.
You get my point, you just refuse to accept the fact that 50 starting energy is INSANE. You don't realize the significance of this change because you probably play at a low level.
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On May 03 2012 09:48 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 S_SienZ wrote:On May 03 2012 09:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. Active tumors spread more and more creep the longer they remain active. Laying down 6? ish extra early tumors is HUGE. They spread creep more quickly to an extent, by the time you have 2-3 in an area you will be waiting on the cooldown on the tumors themselves (and the energy on the queens) to lay more creep tumors. There is no benefit in having 6 down in an area outside of it being more to kill when scanned. You are not demonstrating your knowledge of creep spread too well. Once you have enough tumors in one place that the creep spreads to the limit in ~20 seconds, you can start staggering which ones you move forward so that you can advance tumors every 20 seconds or so instead of 45, which effectively doubles the rate at which it spreads. You don't see players do it much because it's hard to have that many tumors out right now, but it'll be pretty easy after this change. If I didn't explain it too clearly, basically you only advance half your tumors at a time, so there's two groups on separate cooldowns. You spend less time with tumors sitting their on cooldown and not spreading any more creep, essentially.
I dont think I understand what youre saying. Tumors have a limited range, having 3 tumors in any area means you can put down 3 more tumors at the max range, there is no point in staggering when you place them because you cant go any further.
On May 03 2012 09:51 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:24 Toppp wrote:On May 03 2012 09:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 09:14 Toppp wrote:
not to mention that a queen popping out with a transfuse and TWO injects is fucking ridiculous.. if it passes zerg will be unstoppable. Erm, 50 energy is 1 transfuse OR two injects. You also cant inject the same thing twice which nullifies its ability to inject twice. I know.. i meant a queen will pop out with both a transfuse and/or 2 injects.. I know the queen change will never be passed.. but the fact that they even consider adding 50 energy queens makes me worry... No, it means a queen will pop out with a transfuse OR 2 injects. and/or implies they can do both, which costs 100 energy. You get my point, you just refuse to accept the fact that 50 starting energy is INSANE. You don't realize the significance of this change because you probably play at a low level.
Mid masters zerg... I guess I am not a pro so I am a low level. Right?
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On May 03 2012 09:38 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:31 SC_Ghost wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread is believed to be a viable fix for certain pressure, I feel like it's more about larvae management and scouting (overlord placement) rather than creep spread. I mean the extra early queen that's used for creep spread currently is viable at fending off small numbers of Hellions. Again, all my personal opinion. It's helpful for obvious reasons against any sort of air play where you're using queens to defend. Beyond that, most Zerg units move 50-75% faster on creep, which is a HUGE deal, especially with melee units. With the current TvZ build I do, if I see four queens, I transition into something else because I know that I can't push across that much creep and do any damage, it's just not feasible. Now, any zerg with decent mechanics is gonna have that much creep with just 2-3 queens, as well as more larva to spare because they don't have to cut injects to spread their creep. Hopefully there's an SotG soon so that the guys can explain how absurdly overpowered this change would be.
Try 30% speed boost except for hydras, queens, spines, and spores.
I don't get why people are so focused on the creep aspect of this. I think the abundance of transfuses is going to be a bigger problem. If I just bank that extra 25 energy, at every single injection, I can decide to instead transfuse if I need to. There are a fair amount of times where a couple transfuses probably would have saved me, but I didn't have them because I'm good enough to inject perfectly throughout the early game. Now, without doing anything different, I will have that option if I need it.
I'm for anything that will give me better scouting as a Zerg early. I kinda like the idea mentioned previously about putting overlord speed on hatchery tech, but requiring an evo chamber. However, I do think that putting speed on hatchery tech may make it so I can basically have perfect scouting extremely early, which may completely kill every all-in from any race. I hate all-ins, but I would never want them completely eliminated from the game, which such a change might do. I think this change is a good start, and I will definitely get more scouting done than I did before. Whether it's enough, I guess we'll see.
I'm not too sure about the observer change since I don't play Protoss. I don't imagine there are very many timings that are so razor thin that a 10s faster obs will stop it. I could be wrong, though, we'll just have to wait and see on this one I suppose.
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On May 03 2012 08:59 S_SienZ wrote:
Yay another possible Protoss buff.
Is it even worth sacrificing 100 free minerals / 270 quicker minerals for an observer kill anymore? (Situations like observer blink stalker all-in aside)
EDIT: It's also very stupid that they acknowledge this is meant for pro level yet the test sample will be mostly non-pros.
wtf are u talking about
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On May 03 2012 09:53 torm3ntin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:59 S_SienZ wrote:
Yay another possible Protoss buff.
Is it even worth sacrificing 100 free minerals / 270 quicker minerals for an observer kill anymore? (Situations like observer blink stalker all-in aside)
EDIT: It's also very stupid that they acknowledge this is meant for pro level yet the test sample will be mostly non-pros. wtf are u talking about
Hint: It's something only Terrans have.
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EPT
