EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 5
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:22 S_SienZ wrote: The fact that Zergs already make 4 queens anyway makes the change even worse...coz it multiplies. Not to mention it's also a buff to earlier macrohatches if you choose to not blow all that energy on creep. Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:24 Toppp wrote: I know.. i meant a queen will pop out with both a transfuse and/or 2 injects.. I know the queen change will never be passed.. but the fact that they even consider adding 50 energy queens makes me worry... No, it means a queen will pop out with a transfuse OR 2 injects. and/or implies they can do both, which costs 100 energy. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
You're not going hellion to do damage anyway. Only bad zerg die to it. -_- | ||
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Pipeline
Sweden1673 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:54 FairForever wrote: As a zerg, all of them seem fair. The queen having 50 starting energy seems quite a bit too strong though. I think moving it to 35 might make it more fair - if you want an earlier tumor you can get it at a smaller cost to your larva count (but not at no cost). With the tuning we have seen from blizzard this is probably where we will end up. Queen energy will probably be between 30-40ish depending on feedback. | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
Lets get 100 high level games (high masters/GM) played on the map. Then theorycraft, except it won't be so theoretical because you will have actual evidence!!! IMAGINE. + Show Spoiler + as if | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:24 TheRabidDeer wrote: Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven. If you have issues with hellions, make four queens. There's absolutely nothing wrong with queen starting energy right now. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:12 Eufouria wrote: 50 energy does seem a bit much although I guess we'll see in testing. I'm thinking maybe slightly more energy than 25 would be a better compromise, that way they can get an earlier tumor at less cost to their larva production than they currently get. Queens spawning with 50 energy means they come ready with a transfuse, which will make Terran and Protoss air openings much weaker when Zergs were already pretty good at handling them. But isn't one of the chief complaints that Zerg have is that they don't have an early multipurpose unit that can shoot both ground and air? I don't know how much this will affect air play but I don't see it breaking something | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:26 corpuscle wrote: If you have issues with hellions, make four queens. There's absolutely nothing wrong with queen starting energy right now. There is and there isnt. If you really think a couple extra creep tumors is going to hugely effect balance then you are going to have to prove that. Also, the fact that zergs are forced to make extra queens to even spread creep at all in the current state of the game is an issue as well. If you dont make extra queens you have to sacrifice an inject... which zerg really cant afford to do. | ||
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:24 TheRabidDeer wrote: Zergs make 4 queens to deal with hellions and trying to get creep out there. If zerg doesnt make 4 queens he has to make spines which nets him no benefit and no ability to spread creep. They also make 4 queens because they will be using them later in the game too (when they take a 3rd and a macro hatch/4th). Zergs have been forced to make so many queens because of hellions. If you have an issue with creep spread, make a raven. You don't need 4 Queens to deal with hellions, especially if you Sim City well like people like Leenock. You get 4 for creep / future injects and banshees. You don't just "make a raven", especially early on. 200 gas is A LOT. Not to mention how vulnerable it will be if Z techs muta. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:29 S_SienZ wrote: You don't need 4 Queens to deal with hellions, especially if you Sim City well like people like Leenock. You get 4 for creep / future injects and banshees. You don't just "make a raven", especially early on. 200 gas is A LOT. Not to mention how vulnerable it will be if Z techs muta. No Z techs muta anymore, dont kid yourself. Even idra doesnt use mutas anymore. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
International + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y02dO.png) Korean + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/898Ww.png) | ||
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SC_Ghost
United Kingdom64 Posts
Of course, that's just my thought on a whim. I've not tested it or tried it out, all theoretical. I'm not sure why creep spread is believed to be a viable fix for certain pressure, I feel like it's more about larvae management and scouting (overlord placement) rather than creep spread. I mean the extra early queen that's used for creep spread currently is viable at fending off small numbers of Hellions. Again, all my personal opinion. Overlord speed change is definitely needed. Funnily enough I was thinking about this issue before this testing started and the idea I came to was: Perhaps make the Overlord Speed Upgrade a Hatchery upgrade that requires an Evolution Chamber? Just a thought. I'm undecided on the Observer build time, I don't see why it was needed but I can't see where it can benefit apart from when you have a Robo Facility and have to build an Observer reactively (although you could argue that Chrono Boost is used because of that). EDIT: Oh great point by some posters in this thread: There are late-game issues with TvP, I personally believe it's a tech-switch issue (making Ravens much more viable) It's too costly in terms of time to make the investment worthwhile, it makes you considerably weaker during the transition period. Also, during 10-14 mins~ Terran really ramp up with strong mid-game timing pushes vs Protoss, although thats how the timing strategy is supposed to work it could be perceived as too hard for P to hold or recover. I feel it has a lot to do with strategy and less to do with balance, however it is important to note the inconsistencies. | ||
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Killmouse
Austria5700 Posts
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: No Z techs muta anymore, dont kid yourself. Even idra doesnt use mutas anymore. Yeah coz certain decisions like never making Mutas are carved in stone. There's a reason Terran only clears creep with small hit squads of marines with scans. Wondering around the map with a Raven before you get a critical mass of marine tank is suicidal. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
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kittensrcute
United States617 Posts
OL change looks nice | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:34 S_SienZ wrote: Yeah coz certain decisions like never making Mutas are carved in stone. There's a reason Terran only clears creep with small hit squads of marines with scans. Wondering around the map with a Raven before you get a critical mass of marine tank is suicidal. Because a zerg is clearly going to see a raven and instantly think, "I MUST GET MUTAS TO DEAL WITH THIS RAVEN!" And the reason terran clears creep with small hit squads is because going deep onto creep is harder than being off creep. If you have a raven out, you can prevent the creep from getting farther out, ever. EDIT: This is not going to significantly change the creep spread of the 4 queen builds. It will create more tumors, but it will not generate MORE creep. Creep spread from 4 queens is limited by the cooldown on the tumors themselves not just the energy on the queen. At most it will let zerg connect the main and natural and get 1 extra tumor of distance. That is it. | ||
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