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On May 07 2012 14:11 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction.
that's like telling terrans they can either have marines, or they can have scan... but not both. oh wait, terrans would flip shit. queens and overlords aren't going to win against early pressure. if anything they're to buy zergs more time in the same way a wall buys terran time. honestly, have you ever watched how long it takes a queen to kill one marine?
Marines need to be a catch-all unit because Terran doesn't have the worker production or T3 unit strength of a Zerg or protoss. By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. 
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On May 07 2012 12:50 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 12:47 shmee wrote:On May 07 2012 12:37 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2012 11:06 shmee wrote:On May 07 2012 10:48 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2012 10:38 shmee wrote:On May 07 2012 09:59 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2012 09:56 Ziggitz wrote:On May 07 2012 09:46 SgtSlick wrote:
they should just buff base defenses ie. cannon spore spine pf for everyone and boost all building hp a bit. Terran get rushed too ya know.. the amount of times i've lots to bane/ling or 3gate immortal would be well over 300 i reckon. Sux to lose so early its not very fun. I personally feel that if the gamespeed wasn't so ridiculously hyperspeed players could spend more time positioning things better and using the defenders advantage. At the moment its more like, hope your ready... oh you died (2 seconds later) Terrans really don't have any excuse to be losing to baneling busts and should barely be losing to roach bane all ins in circumstances where the Terran got really unlucky with scouting. Terrans are losing to them because at the current moment in the meta game Terrans are being unbelievably greedy. If you throw down 3 CC's and cut early marine and marauder production to get extra raxes up behind a single bunker then yes you SHOULD die if the Zerg goes all in. Terran have been slowly testing the waters for a long time now seeing what they can get away with and Zergs are starting to react to it and punishing them for it. Terrans need to dial it back a bit and figure out what a legitimate amount of econ is and what they can get away with while defending or knowing what to scout to know what they can get away with. Currently they are doing neither. Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ Stop talking. I've lost with two spines because I didn't pump out a 4th queen fast enough to block the ramp because with 6 hellions they can run by and kite lings and queens off-creep. Zerg early game defense is absolutely pitiful. Their ability to stop any early heavy pressure is far and away the worst of all the races, to the point where they have become non-competitive in GSL code S. Denying this is denying reality. Dying to 4 to 6 hellions if you have a Spine and 3 Queens is your problem, not the game one. It's very rare to die to it. Lose 15 drones, though? That's not that difficult. The problem is that zergs have to prepare for every possible all-in. I would absolutely LOVE to watch you try to simultaneously prepare for hellion/marauder, double reactored hellion, banshee, and tank/marine push at the same time. And yes, they can all look really, really, really similar (not to mention that you can be head-faked so easily it makes your head spin). There's a reason the only people bitching about the changes are terrans who are pissy they wouldn't be able to cheese zergs so easily. That's why I agree with the overlord buff. And it's not like we are in 2010, Zerg players have gotten kinda good at defending all kinds of all in, maps are better for that now too. But the 4 or 6 initial hellions from a reactor hellion expand ( which 90% of players will keep outside the natural ) is not something worth a balance patch. If Terran can't prevent Zerg from taking early thirds every game, things will start to look ugly. Then banelings need to be buffed to all hell so that zergs who are on 2 bases can punish terran players who go for a fast 2nd or even a fast 3rd. Right now we have a system where terran can choose to do anything from 1 to 3 bases and all builds are all viable and the zerg MUST scout and counter the terran's build or else they lose. Basically what you're saying is that it's unfair for zergs to be able to take a third without being denied by four a-moving hellions because you can 1rax FE and even the most zerg wall-busting of builds is far from a guaranteed win versus terran. Oh, not to mention that the wall-busting builds are complete all-ins, and not only can the terran defend it anyway, but if they're doing ANYTHING other than the one build it counters, you auto-lose. Don't tell me Zerg can't punish greedy play from Terran. Zerg going that is basicly half of the pro games in this match up right now. DRG, Leenock and all were Roach baneling busting the shit out of every terran not even a month ago.
Its pretty tough to scout whether Terran is playing greedy or not.
Go and watch DRG replay in the winter championship or even MLG providence( DRG vs MMA)
DRG literally blindly roach baneling bust the terrans because he knows that people like Ganzi,MKP,MMA love to play super greedy like 3OC.
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On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:11 TheDraken wrote:
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction.
that's like telling terrans they can either have marines, or they can have scan... but not both. oh wait, terrans would flip shit. queens and overlords aren't going to win against early pressure. if anything they're to buy zergs more time in the same way a wall buys terran time. honestly, have you ever watched how long it takes a queen to kill one marine? Marines need to be a catch-all unit because Terran doesn't have the worker production or T3 unit strength of a Zerg or protoss. By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord.
As far as I know you only pay 50 energy and lose a mule which doesn't cost you anything technically. It doesn't cost you 270 minerals to do a scan, you lose that 270 potential mineral boost but costs you nothing but energy.
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On May 07 2012 14:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:On May 07 2012 14:11 TheDraken wrote:
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction.
that's like telling terrans they can either have marines, or they can have scan... but not both. oh wait, terrans would flip shit. queens and overlords aren't going to win against early pressure. if anything they're to buy zergs more time in the same way a wall buys terran time. honestly, have you ever watched how long it takes a queen to kill one marine? Marines need to be a catch-all unit because Terran doesn't have the worker production or T3 unit strength of a Zerg or protoss. By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. As far as I know you only pay 50 energy and lose a mule which doesn't cost you anything technically. It doesn't cost you 270 minerals to do a scan, you lose that 270 potential mineral boost but costs you nothing but energy.
No, it doesn't cost 270 minerals to scan in the most literal sense, but if I decide to scan instead of dropping a mule, I will have 270 less minerals than if I had decided to mule. It's pretty simple.
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I guess the queen range change completely kills early reaper harrass 
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On May 07 2012 14:37 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:29 blade55555 wrote:On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:On May 07 2012 14:11 TheDraken wrote:
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction.
that's like telling terrans they can either have marines, or they can have scan... but not both. oh wait, terrans would flip shit. queens and overlords aren't going to win against early pressure. if anything they're to buy zergs more time in the same way a wall buys terran time. honestly, have you ever watched how long it takes a queen to kill one marine? Marines need to be a catch-all unit because Terran doesn't have the worker production or T3 unit strength of a Zerg or protoss. By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. As far as I know you only pay 50 energy and lose a mule which doesn't cost you anything technically. It doesn't cost you 270 minerals to do a scan, you lose that 270 potential mineral boost but costs you nothing but energy. No, it doesn't cost 270 minerals to scan in the most literal sense, but if I decide to scan instead of dropping a mule, I will have 270 less minerals than if I had decided to mule. It's pretty simple.
If I put down two spines and you don't attack I lose 300 actual minerals and 2 larva and I can still die to 4-6 hellions.
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On May 07 2012 15:03 Genome852 wrote:I guess the queen range change completely kills early reaper harrass
I thought the early reaper harass was dead already after the barracks time increased and reaper speed tech required factory.
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On May 07 2012 15:08 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:03 Genome852 wrote:I guess the queen range change completely kills early reaper harrass I thought the early reaper harass was dead already after the barracks time increased and reaper speed tech required factory.
Nope Reaper harass is still viable if the Terran can get a bunker up in time at the Zergs natural, You need great micro to do it, but its effective if done right. I have seen Polt do it many times. Queen range change would most likely kill it dead mind you
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On May 07 2012 15:21 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:08 FakeDeath wrote:On May 07 2012 15:03 Genome852 wrote:I guess the queen range change completely kills early reaper harrass I thought the early reaper harass was dead already after the barracks time increased and reaper speed tech required factory. Nope Reaper harass is still viable if the Terran can get a bunker up in time at the Zergs natural, You need great micro to do it, but its effective if done right. I have seen Polt do it many times. Queen range change would most likely kill it dead mind you
Most Zergs are good in denying bunker at your natural.
The queen should come out a bit later and can still easily deny reaper harass when the first reaper arrive and i rarely see reaper openings. Well, if this change goes through reaper openings will be dead i guess maybe not sure.
Hellions opening are the standard opening now.
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On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord.
I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not.
The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes !
Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps.
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scan cost you 270 minerals
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On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps.
Haha what? Zerg and Protoss can make workers much faster than Terran. We have MULEs to compensate for that. It's not a bonus, it's our way of staying equal against superior worker counts, which happen in every non-mirror matchup.
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On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps.
More accurately put, just because you can use all oc energy on mules doesn't mean by default that every scan is 270 minerals that factors into every build order, as if ever using a scan puts you 270 minerals behind where you SHOULD be. It's like saying every spine crawler buiot is 3 drones you were supposed to have or every overlord sacced is two drones you were never meant to lose.
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On May 07 2012 16:47 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps. Haha what? Zerg and Protoss can make workers much faster than Terran. We have MULEs to compensate for that. It's not a bonus, it's our way of staying equal against superior worker counts, which happen in every non-mirror matchup.
RaiZ isn't understanding that you can't inject more than once at a time...
it's called opportunity cost, so yes spreading creep tumor costs an inject (assuming the hatch isn't injected atm)
So yes, scan does cost more than an overlord, if you look at it 1:1. 270 minerals vs 100 minerals + 1 larvae.
On May 07 2012 16:49 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps. More accurately put, just because you can use all oc energy on mules doesn't mean by default that every scan is 270 minerals that factors into every build order, as if ever using a scan puts you 270 minerals behind where you SHOULD be. It's like saying every spine crawler buiot is 3 drones you were supposed to have or every overlord sacced is two drones you were never meant to lose.
Um but that is "ever"... scanning early can, for example, delay an expansion, because you lose 270 minerals. Every spine crawler you build slows you down by 3 drones. That's why Terrans pressure zergs; to slow their economy down.
If you think build orders aren't affected by scans, that's wrong.
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On May 07 2012 10:30 Aprian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 07:26 Crow! wrote:I'm worried about "saccing an overlord" no longer actually involving sacrificing the overlord, particularly against Protoss, whose units have embarassingly low DPS. I have nothing against being able to scout at a cost, but it darn well better be at a cost. Overlords being intercepted is the fault of the idiotic map design that has been the plague of tournament play for like a year and a half now. Queen range doesn't even make physical sense (those arms stretch how far?), and Queens are already super good. I mean, they're walking barracks / gateways that also fight. What the heck more do you need? Clearly, that mule is in range to be pecked at by those talons. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fiikJ.jpg) ok ok I don't see your logic, why do zergs have to scout with a cost, and it's not some unit we lose it is supply that we lose and we don't even get that much information, toss needs only observer to scout wich is a unit not supply and terrans they only have to scan and they see everything, so yea I think the ovi buff is good but not op we will have to sacrifice them again but atleast we will see what the other races are going for and not make blind choices
Scans and obs cost something. Overlords don't really cost anything because you are going to make them anyway. So I also think this will be horrible if overlords can just safely get away now.
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Please stop comparing the cost of the overlord to the cost of scan.
They both work differently.
The only thing that they share in common is scouting.
Guys this overlord buff is fine and definitely not OP.
Overlord scout can still be denied easily they just can scout your base for a bit longer before they die.
Dunno why you guys are being so extreme about it.
Tell me how the overlord speed buff will break the game.
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On May 07 2012 16:47 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps. Haha what? Zerg and Protoss can make workers much faster than Terran. We have MULEs to compensate for that. It's not a bonus, it's our way of staying equal against superior worker counts, which happen in every non-mirror matchup.
Ever seen it like this?
"Zergs have the ability to only make workers, to stay even with Terran and Protoss economy."
In the current metagame (FFE which finishes quite a bit before zergs 2nd; 3CC openings), there are hardly any times in which Zerg has an economical advantage out of not making any units. Hence, it is not even "greedy" right now, to not make any units, because certain Terran/Protoss openings force you to do so.
remark: in PvZ this changes after the 10min mark, when Protoss either did not put on pressure, or do damage and hasn't gotten away with a (very rare) superearly third. In TvZ, even economy is pretty much given all game long.
Not saying scanning is free, but there are quite a few differences between scouting with scans and scouting with OLs, (one is instant, unstopable, detector, energy based, the other one has to be build, positioned, can be intercepted, upgradeable, morphed into a detector unit) and people really should not compare those two head to head. After all, it still comes down to the player and how much he is willing to "pay" for safety, for as long as the tools to do so exist (which is questionable with Overlords, that can't reach scouting spots and get intercepted regularily, before they can see more than 3marines)
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its pointless to compare things directly in asymmetrical designed games
the way terran and zerg are designed leads to a higher importantance to scout for zerg as the zerg has to make more decisions in the early and midgame whereas the terran doesn't need to alter his build too much and he can gather vital information pretty easily through his first scv scout and hellions later
it is very important for zerg to know what the terran is doing and on the other hand important for the terran to deny scouting so that the zerg has to commit to more defense to be safe
what blizzard (imo rightfully) intends to do is to make it a little more easy to scout with overlords, which is still deniable by terran and to make every build a little more safe through queen buff so that a zerg who cannot gather information is able to drone just a little bit more than now
while guessing does make the game a little more interesting and cheese and allins are fine from time to time and have a huge influence in boX situations i think we can all agree that any change that reduces coinflippyness in all the matchups is good
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On May 07 2012 17:09 Tsubbi wrote:
its pointless to compare things directly in asymmetrical designed games
the way terran and zerg are designed leads to a higher importantance to scout for zerg as the zerg has to make more decisions in the early and midgame whereas the terran doesn't need to alter his build too much and he can gather vital information pretty easily through his first scv scout and hellions later
it is very important for zerg to know what the terran is doing and on the other hand important for the terran to deny scouting so that the zerg has to commit to more defense to be safe
what blizzard (imo rightfully) intends to do is to make it a little more easy to scout with overlords, which is still deniable by terran and to make every build a little more safe through queen buff so that a zerg who cannot gather information is able to drone just a little bit more than now
while guessing does make the game a little more interesting and cheese and allins are fine from time to time and have a huge influence in boX situations i think we can all agree that any change that reduces coinflippyness in all the matchups is good
you are not able to drone more than you do right now, else you are already giving away freewins against 3CC openings.
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On May 07 2012 16:49 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:31 RaiZ wrote:On May 07 2012 14:14 corpuscle wrote:By the way, a scan costs more than an overlord. I'm sick of ppl saying that scan "costs" more than an overlord because it's not. The scan comes from an energy dump, not from minerals. Sure scanning before the first 2 mules ever in the beginning could "cost" you more than overlords but that's about it. It's like i'm spending creep tumor instead of injections, look it costs me larvaes ! Stop saying scan cost you 270 minerals. It's not. It's a bonus. You simply have to spend the energy wisely, much like the other race and their energy dumps. More accurately put, just because you can use all oc energy on mules doesn't mean by default that every scan is 270 minerals that factors into every build order, as if ever using a scan puts you 270 minerals behind where you SHOULD be. It's like saying every spine crawler buiot is 3 drones you were supposed to have or every overlord sacced is two drones you were never meant to lose.
except you already have specific times where the scan is better than the mule. You can also argue that because of mule you do not need as many workers as the other races and therefore devote extra supply towards army.
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EPT
