EPTAlso, haven't Terrans essentially stopped doing Reactor Hellion expands? What I've seen in tourney streams lately is always CC before factory, and by the later timing Zerg can have Roaches out. Especially if Zergs scouting what's coming is now going to be an even easier task than it was before. Going Reactor Hellion first seems to just leave Terran too far behind once it gets deflected, and lately it's not even keeping the creep contained.
Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 103
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Also, haven't Terrans essentially stopped doing Reactor Hellion expands? What I've seen in tourney streams lately is always CC before factory, and by the later timing Zerg can have Roaches out. Especially if Zergs scouting what's coming is now going to be an even easier task than it was before. Going Reactor Hellion first seems to just leave Terran too far behind once it gets deflected, and lately it's not even keeping the creep contained. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 10:57 Crow! wrote: If they really want Hydralisks to be available to Hatch tech, they should just make the Hydra Den a Hatch tech building, not make Zerg have a better version of the Hydralisk available to them at all times. Also, haven't Terrans essentially stopped doing Reactor Hellion expands? What I've seen in tourney streams lately is always CC before factory, and by the later timing Zerg can have Roaches out. Especially if Zergs scouting what's coming is now going to be an even easier task than it was before. Going Reactor Hellion first seems to just leave Terran too far behind once it gets deflected, and lately it's not even keeping the creep contained. People generally consider 1rax FE as a variant of the "standard" reactor hellion build, so they still just call it "reactor hellion" for the sake of simplicity. It's kind of like how a roach/ling bust with 7 roaches and no speed and a roach/ling bust with 10 roaches and speed that hits a minute and a half later are both just called "roach/ling bust" despite them being completely different. The real point of reactor hellion is to deny creep spread and map vision, and it's not really a big deal if Zerg knows you went 1rax FE, so a lot of Terrans have just been delaying it. | ||
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shmee
United States28 Posts
On May 07 2012 10:48 Noocta wrote: Dying to 4 to 6 hellions if you have a Spine and 3 Queens is your problem, not the game one. It's very rare to die to it. Lose 15 drones, though? That's not that difficult. The problem is that zergs have to prepare for every possible all-in. I would absolutely LOVE to watch you try to simultaneously prepare for hellion/marauder, double reactored hellion, banshee, and tank/marine push at the same time. And yes, they can all look really, really, really similar (not to mention that you can be head-faked so easily it makes your head spin). There's a reason the only people bitching about the changes are terrans who are pissy they wouldn't be able to cheese zergs so easily. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:06 shmee wrote: It's very rare to die to it. Lose 15 drones, though? That's not that difficult. The problem is that zergs have to prepare for every possible all-in. I would absolutely LOVE to watch you try to simultaneously prepare for hellion/marauder, double reactored hellion, banshee, and tank/marine push at the same time. And yes, they can all look really, really, really similar (not to mention that you can be head-faked so easily it makes your head spin). There's a reason the only people bitching about the changes are terrans who are pissy they wouldn't be able to cheese zergs so easily. Wouldn't you agree, though, that the issue with those builds is that they can't be scouted, so you can't tell which defense to do? If you know what's coming in time, any good Zerg can counter all the builds you're talking about fairly consistently (no, it's not a freewin, but that would be silly if it was). The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction. (I, for the record, think that early ZvT is shitty for the Zerg in the current metagame, but I also think that it's shitty for the Terran if the Zerg manages to survive. TvP works the same way, imo, but let's not open that can of worms.) | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction. Can you explain how the overlord speed boost increases zerg scouting anything more than marginally? If terran really wants to hide tech they still can. You're acting like suddenly the zerg is given maphax when really the change is very very slight. | ||
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shmee
United States28 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:32 corpuscle wrote: Wouldn't you agree, though, that the issue with those builds is that they can't be scouted, so you can't tell which defense to do? If you know what's coming in time, any good Zerg can counter all the builds you're talking about fairly consistently (no, it's not a freewin, but that would be silly if it was). The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction. (I, for the record, think that early ZvT is shitty for the Zerg in the current metagame, but I also think that it's shitty for the Terran if the Zerg manages to survive. TvP works the same way, imo, but let's not open that can of worms.) In order to scout it, you will have to sac an overlord. Even with the speed increase, one marine will have no problem taking out a scouting overlord. Scouting banshee will be easy as that's two gas, but the difference between blueflame, double reactored hellion, and hellion marauder? You'd actually have to get into his base while he's producing. There simply isn't enough time. Also, triple orbital was unbeatable by zergs in MLG and IPL. And again, if what you're saying is that terrans have to make the oh-so-difficult choice between greediness and pressure and yet you're suggesting that zergs need to blindly all-in, then you're being a massive hypocrite. Terrans can move one rax to the low ground, bunker behind it, and be virtually invulnerable to anything other than an absolute, pre-planned all-in. Zergs can do what... build two spines, two additional queens to block the ramp, get a roach warren in case of blue flame, get ling speed in case of hellion/marauder, and even then they STILL can't win in tournament environments because their defense is too piss-poor? Zerg scouting will be better, but the overlord change isn't an early game scouting change. MAYBE we can start seeing a 4-minute overlord sac AND an 8-minute overlord sac, but realistically the overlord speed change will make it easier for zergs to avoid getting their scouting overlord sniped by a lone marine or stalker. Not to mention that sacrificing an overlord to scout at 4min is a huge setback. The real problem is with reapers, hellions, marauders, and kiting queens off-creep. Someone showed that the difference in a pure creepspread build with no denial is minimal in the long term ten pages into this thread. Somehow it's been continued with 90 pages of idiots blindly ignoring what the changes will actually do and going with some Chicken Little tier crap about how the sky will fall because zerg get two creep tumors earlier so they can actually defend against stupid reaper and hellion builds that are never cost-ineffective unless the terran player is terrible. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:37 Zrana wrote: Can you explain how the overlord speed boost increases zerg scouting anything more than marginally? If terran really wants to hide tech they still can. You're acting like suddenly the zerg is given maphax when really the change is very very slight. It's something like a 20% speed increase. That means you're seeing 20% more than you used to in terms of ground. If you're smart about your overlord path, that's a huge deal. Terran building placements are fairly predictable TvZ, you can glean a lot even just from NOT seeing certain buildings. Let's say, for example, that the Terran goes 1rax expand, which you drone-scouted. You sac an OL at 7 minutes, and you see just a reactor factory at the ramp, 2gas, and nothing else, while your OL dies to 5 marines. You can now fairly safely anticipate cloaked banshee. The barracks has clearly gotten lifted off somewhere obscure to make a tech lab (they'd have 6 marines otherwise), hoping the Zerg won't see it. They're not spending that gas on tanks, obviously, and since you don't see other barracks being built near or at the ramp to get eventually put on the reactor, it's not going to be a stim/combat shield/medivac push. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if you think critically and know what you're looking at, you don't need to see all the structures. Yes, mindgames exist, and it's POSSIBLE that it's not cloaked banshee, but you can do other measures to check for that (paying attention to hellion count, primarily, since it's either cloaked banshee or a bio timing, and they'd cut hellions at 6 for most bio timings) In order to scout it, you will have to sac an overlord. Even with the speed increase, one marine will have no problem taking out a scouting overlord. Scouting banshee will be easy as that's two gas, but the difference between blueflame, double reactored hellion, and hellion marauder? You'd actually have to get into his base while he's producing. There simply isn't enough time. Also, triple orbital was unbeatable by zergs in MLG and IPL. And again, if what you're saying is that terrans have to make the oh-so-difficult choice between greediness and pressure and yet you're suggesting that zergs need to blindly all-in, then you're being a massive hypocrite. Terrans can move one rax to the low ground, bunker behind it, and be virtually invulnerable to anything other than an absolute, pre-planned all-in. Zergs can do what... build two spines, two additional queens to block the ramp, get a roach warren in case of blue flame, get ling speed in case of hellion/marauder, and even then they STILL can't win in tournament environments because their defense is too piss-poor? Zerg scouting will be better, but the overlord change isn't an early game scouting change. MAYBE we can start seeing a 4-minute overlord sac AND an 8-minute overlord sac, but realistically the overlord speed change will make it easier for zergs to avoid getting their scouting overlord sniped by a lone marine or stalker. Not to mention that sacrificing an overlord to scout at 4min is a huge setback. The real problem is with reapers, hellions, marauders, and kiting queens off-creep. Someone showed that the difference in a pure creepspread build with no denial is minimal in the long term ten pages into this thread. Somehow it's been continued with 90 pages of idiots blindly ignoring what the changes will actually do and going with some Chicken Little tier crap about how the sky will fall because zerg get two creep tumors earlier so they can actually defend against stupid reaper and hellion builds that are never cost-ineffective unless the terran player is terrible. As I said, Zerg early game is really shitty. The problem is that Terran lategame is really shitty if they don't do damage, so Zerg has to be vulnerable early on. It's poor design, not imbalance. I think that Zerg could use a very minor buff to the early-game because the matchup is most balanced in the midgame, and Terran can do things with marine/tank or mech in the midgame to either prolong the midgame or be ultra-safe lategame. The problem is that if you make Zerg too safe early on, they can cut more and more corners just like Terran players recently have been, and that screws up the matchup. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:59 Noocta wrote: Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ This is the kind of response I would expect from the average terran and is indicative of why everyone is starting to call terran the entitled race. It is not the same thing at all when a Zerg builds his sim city correctly, gets his extra queens and spines to deal with the reactor hellions he scouted and then dies becuase his queen was slightly out of position and it was literally impossible to have a unit out that has the same range or speed of the unit that is now running circles around his main killing dozens of drones which he cannot recover from. Compare this to a Terran who walls pff with a single bunker, does not produce more than 6 marines (We just saw thorzain attempting a one marine one rax fast expand in the nasl) and three cc's and gets roach bane all inned. The terran DOES have a reliable perfectly sealed wall in. The terran DOES have units that outrange the attacking units and can zone out out the mineral lines if the zerg does commit to breaking the wall in which also has a cost to break through. Terrans lose games when the Zerg goes all in and they simply did not scout or build enough units to be safe when theh had every opportunity to do so and chose not to. If Zerg built enough defence to have the same amount of safety as Terrans have witu a safe opening they'd lose everygame because they would not have enough drones to win in the lategame. Your view of the matchup is horrendously skewed becuase you cannot differentiate between building the right defences and them not working and just blindly going for an eco build behind a sealed wall and not building enough units be safe from the all in you had no excuse not to scout. This change adds no extra dps or offensive potential to Zerg just the ability to apply what we already have defensively where it is recognized by every reasonable person it is needed. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:51 Ziggitz wrote: This is the kind of response I would expect from the average terran and is indicative of why everyone is starting to call terran the entitled race. It is not the same thing at all when a Zerg builds his sim city correctly, gets his extra queens and spines to deal with the reactor hellions he scouted and then dies becuase his queen was slightly out of position and it was literally impossible to have a unit out that has the same range or speed of the unit that is now running circles around his main killing dozens of drones which he cannot recover from. Compare this to a Terran who walls pff with a single bunker, does not produce more than 6 marines (We just saw thorzain attempting a one marine one rax fast expand in the nasl) and three cc's. edit fat fingered the submission on my phone full submission incoming. That's a calculated risk, eco cheese, whatever you want to call it. He could've gotten punished super hard for what he did even without the Zerg going allin (look at what Stephano and viOLet do with roach/ling pressure), but the Zerg didn't. Also, this might be an opinion people disagree with, but I'm of the opinion that you should balance the game around players who play as well as humanly possible. If you get punished for making a mistake with queen positioning, well... tough shit. I lose games for looking away from my marines for two seconds, I lose games from one misclick and everything dies because I move-commanded my marines into a baneling squad, I lose games without even fucking knowing what happened because four burrowed banes killed all my marines, I lose games because I didn't anticipate the Zerg army and get caught unsieged. Every race loses to "stupid shit," that's part of the game. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:59 corpuscle wrote: That's a calculated risk, eco cheese, whatever you want to call it. He could've gotten punished super hard for what he did even without the Zerg going allin (look at what Stephano and viOLet do with roach/ling pressure), but the Zerg didn't. Also, this might be an opinion people disagree with, but I'm of the opinion that you should balance the game around players who play as well as humanly possible. If you get punished for making a mistake with queen positioning, well... tough shit. I lose games for looking away from my marines for two seconds, I lose games from one misclick and everything dies because I move-commanded my marines into a baneling squad, I lose games without even fucking knowing what happened because four burrowed banes killed all my marines, I lose games because I didn't anticipate the Zerg army and get caught unsieged. Every race loses to "stupid shit," that's part of the game. How noble of you to hold that position when your race picks up the most wins from exactly that kind of volatility. Play Zerg for a while at master level and see if you still feel that way. Again we're not talking ewual circumstances we're talking about a terran being able to win the game with no more investment than he was going to make without attacking against a zerg going all in against a terran who isn't scouting amd playing extremely greedily. Blizzard finally realized this was an issue that was skewing win rates at the highest level pf the game and are testing a change that will do nothing but remove that volatility to remove that bias frpm the game. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:59 corpuscle wrote: That's a calculated risk, eco cheese, whatever you want to call it. He could've gotten punished super hard for what he did even without the Zerg going allin (look at what Stephano and viOLet do with roach/ling pressure), but the Zerg didn't. Also, this might be an opinion people disagree with, but I'm of the opinion that you should balance the game around players who play as well as humanly possible. If you get punished for making a mistake with queen positioning, well... tough shit. I lose games for looking away from my marines for two seconds, I lose games from one misclick and everything dies because I move-commanded my marines into a baneling squad, I lose games without even fucking knowing what happened because four burrowed banes killed all my marines, I lose games because I didn't anticipate the Zerg army and get caught unsieged. Every race loses to "stupid shit," that's part of the game. I actually think the buffs to overlords and queens were a response to exactly what happened to DongRaeGu during the Winter Arena and Championship finals. MarineKing did a literally coin flip build after 2 rax aggression...in which he would either bunker rush and pull SCV all-in OR build a third orbital. At the current state of the game, the zerg has to blindly guess what the Terran does, if they guess wrong, they die. This made the game terrible because it became less and less dependent on skill and more dependent on luck. I am glad Blizzard is finally stepping in to address this problem. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:06 shmee wrote: It's very rare to die to it. Lose 15 drones, though? That's not that difficult. The problem is that zergs have to prepare for every possible all-in. I would absolutely LOVE to watch you try to simultaneously prepare for hellion/marauder, double reactored hellion, banshee, and tank/marine push at the same time. And yes, they can all look really, really, really similar (not to mention that you can be head-faked so easily it makes your head spin). There's a reason the only people bitching about the changes are terrans who are pissy they wouldn't be able to cheese zergs so easily. That's why I agree with the overlord buff. And it's not like we are in 2010, Zerg players have gotten kinda good at defending all kinds of all in, maps are better for that now too. But the 4 or 6 initial hellions from a reactor hellion expand ( which 90% of players will keep outside the natural ) is not something worth a balance patch. If Terran can't prevent Zerg from taking early thirds every game, things will start to look ugly. | ||
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The ImmortaI One
47 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:37 Zrana wrote: Can you explain how the overlord speed boost increases zerg scouting anything more than marginally? If terran really wants to hide tech they still can. You're acting like suddenly the zerg is given maphax when really the change is very very slight. True that. The speed boost is as minimal an advantage a zerg has as could be. | ||
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shmee
United States28 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:37 Noocta wrote: That's why I agree with the overlord buff. And it's not like we are in 2010, Zerg players have gotten kinda good at defending all kinds of all in, maps are better for that now too. But the 4 or 6 initial hellions from a reactor hellion expand ( which 90% of players will keep outside the natural ) is not something worth a balance patch. If Terran can't prevent Zerg from taking early thirds every game, things will start to look ugly. Then banelings need to be buffed to all hell so that zergs who are on 2 bases can punish terran players who go for a fast 2nd or even a fast 3rd. Right now we have a system where terran can blindly choose to do anything from 1 to 3 bases and all builds are all viable and the zerg MUST scout and counter the terran's build or else they lose. Basically what you're saying is that it's unfair for zergs to be able to take a third without being denied by four a-moving hellions because you can 1rax FE and even the most zerg wall-busting of builds is far from a guaranteed win versus terran. Oh, not to mention that the wall-busting builds are complete all-ins, and not only can the terran defend it anyway, but if they're doing ANYTHING other than the one build it counters, you auto-lose. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:47 shmee wrote: Then banelings need to be buffed to all hell so that zergs who are on 2 bases can punish terran players who go for a fast 2nd or even a fast 3rd. Right now we have a system where terran can choose to do anything from 1 to 3 bases and all builds are all viable and the zerg MUST scout and counter the terran's build or else they lose. Basically what you're saying is that it's unfair for zergs to be able to take a third without being denied by four a-moving hellions because you can 1rax FE and even the most zerg wall-busting of builds is far from a guaranteed win versus terran. Oh, not to mention that the wall-busting builds are complete all-ins, and not only can the terran defend it anyway, but if they're doing ANYTHING other than the one build it counters, you auto-lose. Don't tell me Zerg can't punish greedy play from Terran. Zerg going that is basicly half of the pro games in this match up right now. DRG, Leenock and all were Roach baneling busting the shit out of every terran not even a month ago. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:47 shmee wrote: Then banelings need to be buffed to all hell so that zergs who are on 2 bases can punish terran players who go for a fast 2nd or even a fast 3rd. Right now we have a system where terran can blindly choose to do anything from 1 to 3 bases and all builds are all viable and the zerg MUST scout and counter the terran's build or else they lose. Basically what you're saying is that it's unfair for zergs to be able to take a third without being denied by four a-moving hellions because you can 1rax FE and even the most zerg wall-busting of builds is far from a guaranteed win versus terran. Oh, not to mention that the wall-busting builds are complete all-ins, and not only can the terran defend it anyway, but if they're doing ANYTHING other than the one build it counters, you auto-lose. I think that's an issue that comes down to maps more than anything, personally. I don't know if it's because of PvZ or what, but it seems like every map has a really easy-to-wall choke and Zerg has to go allin to punish a greedy terran, whereas if the naturals were wider, you could get around the wall and exploit the fact that most terrans rely on the flimsiest of defenses. I guess the counter to that is that hellions are better with a wide natural, so I guess it's not really a win/win. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On May 07 2012 04:29 Debian wrote: Everyone is talking about the queen buff but ignoring the overlord speed buff. I can see why they are doing it but I think they might have overdone it. The overlord are 37 sec faster on daybreak (to usual hiding spot (cliff by 3rd/4th)). They needs to make it a bit slower IMO. Zergs going to get so much more scouting info (in the early game). that's the point. you shouldn't be able to just put buildings wherever in your base and deny all scouting with a wall and a stalker/marine in the back. if you want to hide shit you're actually going to have to hide it (read: take a risk for once). | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On May 07 2012 07:31 Bensio wrote: They have already stated that the attack animation will need to be changed... queen will probably just attack like a hydra. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:46 SgtSlick wrote: they should just buff base defenses ie. cannon spore spine pf for everyone and boost all building hp a bit. Terran get rushed too ya know.. the amount of times i've lots to bane/ling or 3gate immortal would be well over 300 i reckon. Sux to lose so early its not very fun. I personally feel that if the gamespeed wasn't so ridiculously hyperspeed players could spend more time positioning things better and using the defenders advantage. At the moment its more like, hope your ready... oh you died (2 seconds later) "the amount of times i've lots to bane/ling or 3gate immortal would be well over 300 i reckon" and how many times do you think any one zerg has lost to bunker rushes and gateway all-ins? "Sux to lose so early its not very fun" but it's fun for a zerg player? i think it's fair for terrans to start losing early a bit more. the biggest reason this stuff is getting patched is to level out the cost of strategies against zerg. early game pressure against zerg rarely has to be all-in to do significant damage. a terran puts down a bunker at the zerg natural, and the zerg shits himself. if the zerg manages to destroy it, the terran doesn't really give a shit. it's just not balanced. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
The problem I have is that Zerg will now not only be able to scout what the terran's doing, it's easier to defend AND they'll see it coming. As I said in my last post, Zerg either needs a strong catch-all defensive unit (ie the queen) that lets them be more versatile in early-game defense, OR they need better scouting abilities so they can know what to do. One or the other, not both. It seems like an over-correction. that's like telling terrans they can either have marines, or they can have scan... but not both. oh wait, terrans would flip shit. queens and overlords aren't going to win against early pressure. if anything they're to buy zergs more time in the same way a wall buys terran time. honestly, have you ever watched how long it takes a queen to kill one marine? | ||
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