EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 102
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Debian
Canada95 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 07 2012 03:51 zmansman17 wrote: Actually, carriers have the highest dps of any unit in the game. They actually are good units if used correctly. I've played puCK a few times where he indeed went carrier/void ray/mothership. It's just not something you see frequently since so many players have dismissed the carrier. It's similar to the idea of the speed warp prism, where protoss players fail to use the WP to drop Templar. They have also dismissed the speed WP as a bad idea that can "just be sniped by vikings". no they dont have highest dps. in no category. BCs and Thors have more if you compare singlefire units. per supply and per cost, there are also a ton of units better (marines, lings). carriers big plus are range and durability with OK damage. | ||
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Affluenza
United Kingdom214 Posts
On May 07 2012 04:29 Debian wrote: Everyone is talking about the queen buff but ignoring the overlord speed buff. I can see why they are doing it but I think they might have overdone it. The overlord are 37 sec faster on daybreak (to usual hiding spot (cliff by 3rd/4th)). They needs to make it a bit slower IMO. Zergs going to get so much more scouting info (in the early game). You clearly don't play Zerg if you think this and you're just being an alarmist... Early game scouting for Zerg has needed a slight buff since WoL has been released...it's been a long time coming and should be welcomed. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On May 07 2012 04:29 Debian wrote: Everyone is talking about the queen buff but ignoring the overlord speed buff. I can see why they are doing it but I think they might have overdone it. The overlord are 37 sec faster on daybreak (to usual hiding spot (cliff by 3rd/4th)). They needs to make it a bit slower IMO. Zergs going to get so much more scouting info (in the early game). So what if they are 37 seconds faster? What key timing does that give them to sac the overlord that gives them so much information as to make it imbalanced? You'll notice against Terrans and Protosses in close air positions Zergs don't send their overlords in right away unless it's as close as metalopolis. You normally wait until around the 5-6 minute mark and thern go in because that's around the time you want to know if certain tech is or isn't being built, going in any earlier before they could build that tech is pointless because you gain no information and lose an overlord. The extra speed is so that large maps where the overlord is forced to go over passable terrain to get to a scouting spot are not biased against Zerg by allowing the overlords to get over passable terrain faster and not get the overlord sniped. What probably prompted the change was seeing Terrans getting the first scouting overlord more than half the time on daybreak and realizing how stupid it was. | ||
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Overlords being intercepted is the fault of the idiotic map design that has been the plague of tournament play for like a year and a half now. Queen range doesn't even make physical sense (those arms stretch how far?), and Queens are already super good. I mean, they're walking barracks / gateways that also fight. What the heck more do you need? Clearly, that mule is in range to be pecked at by those talons. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fiikJ.jpg) | ||
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Bensio
United Kingdom621 Posts
On May 07 2012 07:26 Crow! wrote: I'm worried about "saccing an overlord" no longer actually involving sacrificing the overlord, particularly against Protoss, whose units have embarassingly low DPS. I have nothing against being able to scout at a cost, but it darn well better be at a cost. Overlords being intercepted is the fault of the idiotic map design that has been the plague of tournament play for like a year and a half now. Queen range doesn't even make physical sense (those arms stretch how far?), and Queens are already super good. I mean, they're walking barracks / gateways that also fight. What the heck more do you need? Clearly, that mule is in range to be pecked at by those talons. They have already stated that the attack animation will need to be changed... | ||
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
On May 07 2012 03:51 zmansman17 wrote: Actually, carriers have the highest dps of any unit in the game. They actually are good units if used correctly. I've played puCK a few times where he indeed went carrier/void ray/mothership. It's just not something you see frequently since so many players have dismissed the carrier. It's similar to the idea of the speed warp prism, where protoss players fail to use the WP to drop Templar. They have also dismissed the speed WP as a bad idea that can "just be sniped by vikings". accually carries have alot less dps than thor and battlecruiser, same dps then broodlord+3 broodlings, less dps than 4 non stim marines, less than 4 non adrenalin lings, less than 2 hydralisks, and little more than 2 zealots. Acually carriers alpha is not that impressive either considering their cost. vikings per cost has more dmg per attack per cost. Maybe even more importantly, carrier does its "hightest dps in the game" with 16 attacks. which makes the whole thing even more funny. | ||
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SgtSlick
Australia92 Posts
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Fleshy0320
United States7 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 07 2012 08:10 Fleshy0320 wrote: why not just give zerg one tumor with each hat and no extra energy? Nah creep tumor? Just double the radius of creep around hatchery or increase it by 50%, staying with same spread ratio (speed of spreading) | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
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SgtSlick
Australia92 Posts
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:46 SgtSlick wrote: they should just buff base defenses ie. cannon spore spine pf for everyone and boost all building hp a bit. Terran get rushed too ya know.. the amount of times i've lots to bane/ling or 3gate immortal would be well over 300 i reckon. Sux to lose so early its not very fun. I personally feel that if the gamespeed wasn't so ridiculously hyperspeed players could spend more time positioning things better and using the defenders advantage. At the moment its more like, hope your ready... oh you died (2 seconds later) Terrans really don't have any excuse to be losing to baneling busts and should barely be losing to roach bane all ins in circumstances where the Terran got really unlucky with scouting. Terrans are losing to them because at the current moment in the meta game Terrans are being unbelievably greedy. If you throw down 3 CC's and cut early marine and marauder production to get extra raxes up behind a single bunker then yes you SHOULD die if the Zerg goes all in. Terran have been slowly testing the waters for a long time now seeing what they can get away with and Zergs are starting to react to it and punishing them for it. Terrans need to dial it back a bit and figure out what a legitimate amount of econ is and what they can get away with while defending or knowing what to scout to know what they can get away with. Currently they are doing neither. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:56 Ziggitz wrote: Terrans really don't have any excuse to be losing to baneling busts and should barely be losing to roach bane all ins in circumstances where the Terran got really unlucky with scouting. Terrans are losing to them because at the current moment in the meta game Terrans are being unbelievably greedy. If you throw down 3 CC's and cut early marine and marauder production to get extra raxes up behind a single bunker then yes you SHOULD die if the Zerg goes all in. Terran have been slowly testing the waters for a long time now seeing what they can get away with and Zergs are starting to react to it and punishing them for it. Terrans need to dial it back a bit and figure out what a legitimate amount of econ is and what they can get away with while defending or knowing what to scout to know what they can get away with. Currently they are doing neither. Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: This kind of thread is why I feel everyone should have a sc2 profile linked to their name. Like after posts, it would say bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/masters/gmasters. It really helps when talking about balance and other issues when you know you're not talking to an extremely low level player that is a I watch every tournament theorycraft pro...that bases everything off one series in one tournament to show why something is so imbalanced. Though I personally also like this idea as it gets rid of low level balance whiner trolls, at the same time, I don't think its fair to posters who have higher knowledge than actual playing skill, because people will no doubt dismiss their opinion instantly (even if its a good one) if they see that their linked profile is not of a high league. The best thing imo is to incorporate some sort of post rating system that I've seen other forum boards use before. Allow users to be able to rate posts (e.g.1-5 stars), and show their average score under their name. Its not a perfect system by any means, but at least you'll be able to filter out which posters are just here to waste peoples time rather quickly (actually I think some sites just ban posters who have an absurdly low rating with enough rates). Because right now I agree with you that there are way too many posts which are completely nonconstructive/absurd, would make threads a lot more enjoyable to read if they are full of proper legit honest discussions. | ||
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Aprian
Bulgaria1 Post
On May 07 2012 07:26 Crow! wrote: I'm worried about "saccing an overlord" no longer actually involving sacrificing the overlord, particularly against Protoss, whose units have embarassingly low DPS. I have nothing against being able to scout at a cost, but it darn well better be at a cost. Overlords being intercepted is the fault of the idiotic map design that has been the plague of tournament play for like a year and a half now. Queen range doesn't even make physical sense (those arms stretch how far?), and Queens are already super good. I mean, they're walking barracks / gateways that also fight. What the heck more do you need? Clearly, that mule is in range to be pecked at by those talons. ok ok I don't see your logic, why do zergs have to scout with a cost, and it's not some unit we lose it is supply that we lose and we don't even get that much information, toss needs only observer to scout wich is a unit not supply and terrans they only have to scan and they see everything, so yea I think the ovi buff is good but not op we will have to sacrifice them again but atleast we will see what the other races are going for and not make blind choices | ||
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shmee
United States28 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:59 Noocta wrote: Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ Stop talking. I've lost with two spines because I didn't pump out a 4th queen fast enough to block the ramp because with 6 hellions they can run by and kite lings and queens off-creep. Zerg early game defense is absolutely pitiful. Their ability to stop any early heavy pressure is far and away the worst of all the races, to the point where they have become non-competitive in GSL code S. Denying this is denying reality. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:59 Noocta wrote: Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ I don't think it's a matter of them wanting to change Zergs *dying* to reactor hellion, I think they want to mitigate its effectiveness somewhat. I don't agree with it alongside the overlord change, but I can see the logic of queen range increase in the current metagame if Zergs also have a really hard time scouting. If you don't know that the terran's going super-fast 3CC, super fast banshees, later banshees, a stim timing push, 2base marauder/hellion, marauder/hellion allin, etc. it's really hard to react, and queens as a sort of catch-all defense and the ability to spread creep more easily/cost effectively is a huge benefit. The other way to deal with the current TvZ issues is to buff overlord speed, which lets Zerg get an overlord into the base to see what's going on before marines inevitably kill it. My complaint is that they're doing both, when one or the other would solve everthing. I don't think TvZ early-midgame is so broken that they need 2 buffs at once. (I won't comment on the way ZvP would change, I'm a Terran player and won't claim to know ZvP well enough) | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 07 2012 10:38 shmee wrote: Stop talking. I've lost with two spines because I didn't pump out a 4th queen fast enough to block the ramp because with 6 hellions they can run by and kite lings and queens off-creep. Zerg early game defense is absolutely pitiful. Their ability to stop any early heavy pressure is far and away the worst of all the races, to the point where they have become non-competitive in GSL code S. Denying this is denying reality. Dying to 4 to 6 hellions if you have a Spine and 3 Queens is your problem, not the game one. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On May 07 2012 09:59 Noocta wrote: Yet they want to make Zerg better against early hellion when Zerg who die to it are greedy one's who skip the spine. :/ Zergs play Greedy all of the time, but when they are surprised with a MM 2 base stim push while they are droning their 3rd, then I guess by the same logic that you employ, "they deserve to die to it." Then don't complain when it happens. Terran players have been dropping 3 OC because they realize that they need to keep up with bases lest the zerg economy overtakes Terran. | ||
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