EPTEpic video, you have to laugh at Blizzard sometimes hehe
Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 101
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Epic video, you have to laugh at Blizzard sometimes hehe | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 06 2012 19:57 memcpy wrote: Please. I understand that TL wants an open forum for discussion which is perfectly reasonable, but having a requirement of linking your b.net profile to be shown in strategy section posts would be a nice addition. However I know some people would argue that they either don't have time, don't feel inclined to play ladder games or feel that their understanding is higher than their actual playing ability so there's no way this would ever happen. and it absolutly doesn't make any sense at all, because 99% of the people - even in Masters - are still stuck with copying strategies and afterwards justifying them with arbitrary "this is necessary because of..." arguements, instead of repeatedly testing stuff up to the point where they have a solid understanding of what they are doing. I even think, that on prolevel most people don't have the time to figure out a lot of those things and won't ever have it. That's why this game will never become as static as "if he does X, I should do Y". TLDR: League is a very very rough estimation of one's experience with certain situations. | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On May 06 2012 19:57 memcpy wrote: Please. I understand that TL wants an open forum for discussion which is perfectly reasonable, but having a requirement of linking your b.net profile to be shown in strategy section posts would be a nice addition. However I know some people would argue that they either don't have time, don't feel inclined to play ladder games or feel that their understanding is higher than their actual playing ability so there's no way this would ever happen. Or alternatively, that argument itself is way more important than authority, Which kinda sucks for the usual "my e-penis is longer, your argument is invalid" folks,.. On May 06 2012 19:44 mostevil wrote: Didn't Genuis kill a bunch of codeS terrans 3 gate prox voidraying them on the way to the last GSL finals (I definitely remeber at least one good one)... Anyway, they're fine as they are and they don't do that well vs carrier/BC anyway, despite that being the original stated design intention. The general idea seems sound though but its a bit big to mess with all those numbers at once. Carriers just need that interceptor twin attack making a single so it scales better with/against ups, throw in better range/interceptor recall for some BW style overrated carrier micro and everyNony will be happy. Well that is kinda very very small appearance compared to say Viking or medivack, right? Oh and buffing voids(via stronger upgrade impact or fleet-beacon upgrade) would kinda help protoss to deal with Broodlord-Infester AND provide alternative to robotics-warpgate protoss, which is kinda cool in itself, right? | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
On May 06 2012 17:01 naastyOne wrote: about overlord speed increase: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w1rfRwIuXTg Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:43 zmansman17 wrote: Yeah +1 for this. I think it would really go through a lot of the BS Would possibly help, then again it might just lead to more rude comments from those obnoxious guys who cheesed or one builded their way to masters... Should show the server too though.. I have a friend that plays a the "same" league messing around drunk on US to his sober serious EU account (he calls it wood league). Another advantage is It'd encourage me to ladder some too, my 10 games/season 1 league promotion pattern needs breaking. | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. ... The overseer represents the overload with the speed buff. Think alittle before you accuse ppl of shit | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. The overseer is just the model he used to differentiate the post-patch overlord from the current one. Pay attention. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. The overseer is the buffed OL, OL is OL on live. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 06 2012 15:10 TheCasualGamer wrote: Why are there so many disagrees with the observer change? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just wondering about opinions. I don't think it's necessary. Protoss are doing fine and them having to sacrifice less time of robo production for observers might backfire a bit. But we'll see, it's not that huge. | ||
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mrGRAPE
Singapore293 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. Reading the lower left corner of the video might help. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On May 06 2012 22:15 Noocta wrote: I don't think it's necessary. Protoss are doing fine and them having to sacrifice less time of robo production for observers might backfire a bit. But we'll see, it's not that huge. It might be for PvP, it could also encourage more immortals before observer defensively in PvZ. Also, the difference between those 10 seconds is huge for a banshee killing probes in a mineral line when a Terran is doing 1-1-1. It helps to address scouting in the early game just enough that it gives protoss a slightly sooner way of getting information. Because with good control info is almsot guaranteed in some way it comes later but it comes just a bit sooner this way and will provide better defensive use of the observer. If you need to make 2 observers, you save 20 seconds which is quite a lot of time when it comes to building immortals against things like 1-1-1. It won't make late game protoss any stronger but it will help against one base all ins and in providing the option of earlier immortals more safely in PvZ (from a defensive standpoint). | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. Not mine, just reposted because i find the video hilarious, but ofcourse you`r opinion, based on lack of attention to details, is very important for us, verry, very important. Move along citizen. | ||
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Gackt_
335 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:53 Shade_CsT wrote: Why are you posting fake videos ? An overseer (even without the OV upgrade) is faster than a Barrack. Hahah is this guy trolling or what?! | ||
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MikouZonata
Netherlands3 Posts
When I first read the change from 25 to 50 starting energy I was very excited. No no, not for that 1 creep tumour extra I get at 3 minutes (which I won't throw down) or for the chance of running my queen down my ramp from my main to my natural because it can now inject both of the hatcheries (which I think it can do anyway since it generated close to 25 energy on the way there). I was thrilled because of the amazing ability called Transfuse. Why is that? We will now have less trouble with terran all-ins, perhaps this is true. A well timed transfuse can keep the trusty spinecrawler alive long enough to poke down an extra marine and maybe that extra creep tumour will benefit my mobility enough to get a better surround with lings. Awesome. Protoss pressure is rather annoying. Various strategies like the 4gate, 3gate robo or stargate, 7gate robo, double stargate or 8gate all-ins (blink, charge or +1 if deemed necessary) can be a big pain to hold. And I'm pretty sure I haven't even named them all yet. The extra transfuse can again aid in the keeping alive of anti-air, static defences or maybe roaches or hatcheries. The extra mobility from the creep tumour can aid in being in the right place at the right time, very nice. So is this why I am sad that the buff has been withdrawn? No. ZvZ. Every zerg's favourite match-up. ZvZ can be, as most of you know, a coin-flip situation. The loading screen comes up before your match, you think of what strategy you're going to perform and once the game begins you start executing chosen build. You have chosen to do the 15 hatch build, very nice. An economicaly wise decision. With your scouting drone (if you sent one) you however soon find out that your opponent has an odd lack of drones yet a rather large pile of larvae. The ling (bling) all-in. Everyone's favourite strategy. If it doesn't come out of a 9pool it's likely to develop out of the much more lethal 15 15 17 build in which the stream of little hungry critters will simply never cease to stream. Your 15 hatchery strategy suddenly feels very risky. You desperately try to build up spinecrawlers and lings but alas, your opponent is already chewing away the front door. What front door is that? The queens. The queens play a vital role in any ZvZ. If it is not for spreading creep or vomiting on hatcheries it is for their ability to tank damage and keep your ramp from being overrun by creatures with a craving for drones. Any ZvZ can easily turn into a base-trade scenario if you decide to push out at the wrong moment, which can be any moment. This happens because zergs, unlike their terran an protoss friends, don't have the ability to build a wall with simple buildings without going through the trouble of spreading creep in odd places and making far more buildings than they actually need. Building this wall can be expensive and often, even when complete, not tight enough to stop runby's from occurring. Placing 2 queens on said ramp is therefore a safe and clean solution. So what happens if the queens die? With the queen dethroned her soldiers fall soon after and this can very possibly result in a total wiping of the base. Good game? Perhaps. You can of course argue that the build you are performing is simply unsafe. Build more defences, more units and more queens. Sounds fun, no? The queen buff would pose a simple solution to this problem. The queen spawns with a transfuse, ready to keep her sister on the ramp healthy and keep the lings out of her base. Very nice. The forums however, were concerned. [sarcasm] Creep spread would get absolutely out of control because zerg would be able to place an extra tumour with every queen and a queen that would be able to inject the same hatchery twice upon spawn is just out of this world [/sarcasm]. Buffing the queen however was still a good idea. Since she is so slow off her precious creep they pose no big threat in a push and they are an easy fix for early pressure because they are always around the base. So they gave her 2 extra range, from 3 to 5. Happy now, zerg? Not really. The queen will have 2 extra range on her ground attack, which does a whopping 8 damage, spread over 2 separate attacks. This means she now has equal the range of a marine or helion. It however does not take away that she requires 6 attacks to kill 1 marine, or just 12 attacks to kill 1 helion. Kiting a zealot will become less micro-intensive and other than that... Well I can't think of any other use than that in ZvP. Of course she also becomes more adapt at killing intruding harvesters placing bunkers and canons, but that aside. In the ZvZ match-up her 2 extra range will mean that she will die just as easy as before. If she is anywhere near the battle however she will be able to attack from further away, which will allow her to snipe an extra baneling or 2 and maybe stay out of harm's way. Besides that this buff however will not likely stop lings from invading your private territory, and the old counter-attack and ling all-in issues continue to exist. Ok, Mikou, get to your point already. I am not 100% sure what the reason behind the queens changes were in a ZvT or ZvP perspective, since these match-ups don't need much tweaking as far as I'm concerned. From a ZvZ perspective however, I felt like the spawning energy increase was a step in the right direction. The range increase is nice to have, but won't have a mayor impact on how ZvZ plays out. Because of this I would like to request to community to rethink this change. Will increasing the range by 2 really solve the issues we're trying to solve and what other options are there available? A suggestion I have come up with would be to give the queen additional armour. Maybe increase the base armour from 1 to 2, or if it's to severe from 1 to 1,5. Perhaps give the spawning pool or hatchery the ability to research additional armour for queens. This would make her more durable on the ramp against lings and in a straight up fight against marines or zealots. Maybe it's possible to tune her hitpoints or build time to increase her durability or allow the zerg to get a third and fourth queen up in time. It's a tricky business, balance is very sensitive. But I at least ask you to reconsider the changes with ZvZ in mind. Terran and protoss have never been fond of the cute ways of the swarm but, our worst enemy is still our own kind. My apologies if I let myself go on for too long. Writing this was also quite fun. - Mikou | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:57 mostevil wrote: Would possibly help, then again it might just lead to more rude comments from those obnoxious guys who cheesed or one builded their way to masters... Should show the server too though.. I have a friend that plays a the "same" league messing around drunk on US to his sober serious EU account (he calls it wood league). Another advantage is It'd encourage me to ladder some too, my 10 games/season 1 league promotion pattern needs breaking. Funny since I have a better record on EU than I do on NA/KR. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:55 MikouZonata wrote: So, back to queens. When I first read the change from 25 to 50 starting energy I was very excited. No no, not for that 1 creep tumour extra I get at 3 minutes (which I won't throw down) or for the chance of running my queen down my ramp from my main to my natural because it can now inject both of the hatcheries (which I think it can do anyway since it generated close to 25 energy on the way there). I was thrilled because of the amazing ability called Transfuse. Why is that? We will now have less trouble with terran all-ins, perhaps this is true. A well timed transfuse can keep the trusty spinecrawler alive long enough to poke down an extra marine and maybe that extra creep tumour will benefit my mobility enough to get a better surround with lings. Awesome. Protoss pressure is rather annoying. Various strategies like the 4gate, 3gate robo or stargate, 7gate robo, double stargate or 8gate all-ins (blink, charge or +1 if deemed necessary) can be a big pain to hold. And I'm pretty sure I haven't even named them all yet. The extra transfuse can again aid in the keeping alive of anti-air, static defences or maybe roaches or hatcheries. The extra mobility from the creep tumour can aid in being in the right place at the right time, very nice. So is this why I am sad that the buff has been withdrawn? No. ZvZ. Every zerg's favourite match-up. ZvZ can be, as most of you know, a coin-flip situation. The loading screen comes up before your match, you think of what strategy you're going to perform and once the game begins you start executing chosen build. You have chosen to do the 15 hatch build, very nice. An economicaly wise decision. With your scouting drone (if you sent one) you however soon find out that your opponent has an odd lack of drones yet a rather large pile of larvae. The ling (bling) all-in. Everyone's favourite strategy. If it doesn't come out of a 9pool it's likely to develop out of the much more lethal 15 15 17 build in which the stream of little hungry critters will simply never cease to stream. Your 15 hatchery strategy suddenly feels very risky. You desperately try to build up spinecrawlers and lings but alas, your opponent is already chewing away the front door. What front door is that? The queens. The queens play a vital role in any ZvZ. If it is not for spreading creep or vomiting on hatcheries it is for their ability to tank damage and keep your ramp from being overrun by creatures with a craving for drones. Any ZvZ can easily turn into a base-trade scenario if you decide to push out at the wrong moment, which can be any moment. This happens because zergs, unlike their terran an protoss friends, don't have the ability to build a wall with simple buildings without going through the trouble of spreading creep in odd places and making far more buildings than they actually need. Building this wall can be expensive and often, even when complete, not tight enough to stop runby's from occurring. Placing 2 queens on said ramp is therefore a safe and clean solution. So what happens if the queens die? With the queen dethroned her soldiers fall soon after and this can very possibly result in a total wiping of the base. Good game? Perhaps. You can of course argue that the build you are performing is simply unsafe. Build more defences, more units and more queens. Sounds fun, no? The queen buff would pose a simple solution to this problem. The queen spawns with a transfuse, ready to keep her sister on the ramp healthy and keep the lings out of her base. Very nice. The forums however, were concerned. [sarcasm] Creep spread would get absolutely out of control because zerg would be able to place an extra tumour with every queen and a queen that would be able to inject the same hatchery twice upon spawn is just out of this world [/sarcasm]. Buffing the queen however was still a good idea. Since she is so slow off her precious creep they pose no big threat in a push and they are an easy fix for early pressure because they are always around the base. So they gave her 2 extra range, from 3 to 5. Happy now, zerg? Not really. The queen will have 2 extra range on her ground attack, which does a whopping 8 damage, spread over 2 separate attacks. This means she now has equal the range of a marine or helion. It however does not take away that she requires 6 attacks to kill 1 marine, or just 12 attacks to kill 1 helion. Kiting a zealot will become less micro-intensive and other than that... Well I can't think of any other use than that in ZvP. Of course she also becomes more adapt at killing intruding harvesters placing bunkers and canons, but that aside. In the ZvZ match-up her 2 extra range will mean that she will die just as easy as before. If she is anywhere near the battle however she will be able to attack from further away, which will allow her to snipe an extra baneling or 2 and maybe stay out of harm's way. Besides that this buff however will not likely stop lings from invading your private territory, and the old counter-attack and ling all-in issues continue to exist. Ok, Mikou, get to your point already. I am not 100% sure what the reason behind the queens changes were in a ZvT or ZvP perspective, since these match-ups don't need much tweaking as far as I'm concerned. From a ZvZ perspective however, I felt like the spawning energy increase was a step in the right direction. The range increase is nice to have, but won't have a mayor impact on how ZvZ plays out. Because of this I would like to request to community to rethink this change. Will increasing the range by 2 really solve the issues we're trying to solve and what other options are there available? A suggestion I have come up with would be to give the queen additional armour. Maybe increase the base armour from 1 to 2, or if it's to severe from 1 to 1,5. Perhaps give the spawning pool or hatchery the ability to research additional armour for queens. This would make her more durable on the ramp against lings and in a straight up fight against marines or zealots. Maybe it's possible to tune her hitpoints or build time to increase her durability or allow the zerg to get a third and fourth queen up in time. It's a tricky business, balance is very sensitive. But I at least ask you to reconsider the changes with ZvZ in mind. Terran and protoss have never been fond of the cute ways of the swarm but, our worst enemy is still our own kind. My apologies if I let myself go on for too long. Writing this was also quite fun. - Mikou Read Belial's guides on ZvZ. The matchup is far from being a coinflip, it's rather one of the matchups, in which both: your strategical decisions and your micro matter a lot. I do see your point in early transfusions (or more queen armor) giving bigger early defenders advantages in ZvZ, but I don't really see, why this would be needed. After all, a MUs quality is not determined by number of bases a player can take fast. That aside, I want to mention that I think 50 energy queens' ability to double transfuse both hatches early on, might have made it possible to go to lair faster in every Matchup (queing 2queens in one hatchery instead of 2queens in 2 hatches early on), which might have given interesting options for 2base tech rushes. But yeah, I have to agree with most people here: creep would probably get out of control, banshees, void rays and phoenix might become somewhat too inefficient against zerg early on. Just as a suggestion, instead of any of those other queen changes: I think blizzard should change transfuse to a 2 health per energy "WC2 paladin" like one, so that transfusing small units like banelings, drones and zerglings becomes viable and transfusions of queens, roaches and hydralisks can be treated more as a "spam" ability, instead of the current "wait until the unit is nearly dead and then transfuse and hope it gets off before the unit is dead, if you do otherwise you waste a ton of queen energy to heal 50HP for 50energy". | ||
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Lokerek
United States441 Posts
On May 06 2012 13:50 K3Nyy wrote: Roaches are not an endgame unit, they are a midgame unit. If you're still on Roach tech vs P/T when you're both maxed, then you were really far behind all game or you just decided to make a bad late game unit composition. They're certain not "bad". They are ridiculously cost effective in the midgame and as long as you keep the game in a midgame stage, they'll always be good. I did not say they are bad in the midgame. I was always talking about late-game. You can keep stalkers for your lategame while the roaches you made to defend protoss pushes throughout the midgame have to be eventually sent to die (you don't recover cost) while the stalkers you made remain and are useful for sniping broodlords. | ||
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Kingy604
United Kingdom54 Posts
On May 06 2012 12:26 Lokerek wrote: It clearly seems you are the one who can't read too. My whole point was : "They are terrible because they do not transfer into late game in ZvP and ZvT" - At late game, stalkers always have blink in PROS game - they are balancing game for the pros. - Roaches are terrible vs colossi,archon, stalker, mothership deathballs - Late game composition in ZvP - If you happen to watch ZvT, late game is broodlords, infestors, crack lings - roaches are not present in late game - Even vs terran mech roaches were only utilized to drops in production bases - If you are going to claim roach counters mech - then you are talking about MID GAME which is true not LATE GAME - They mass roaches in ZvP ? How cute ... But in those games you do not get late game unit compositions. The game is decided before that whether protoss defends or zerg wins. AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LATE GAME WITH LATE GAME UNIT COMPOSITIONS. - You offrace as rank 2 Master on NA - Congratulations. I'm pretty sure you are the next big thing and going to win all the tournaments and show us all how to play the game. I want to see the mass roaches you meet on ladder to beat korean protosses. This balance talk is about games played by pro, not some scrubs on NA server. - One guy already proved he can get to GM on EU/NA by 6 pool opening every game. His games are as much of a value to balance as your 2nd rank offracing master. Since when have you seen a pro player have more then 10-15 blinkstalkers in lategame versus terran or zerg, that supply is beter spent on archons/collo/mommaship/ almost any other unit. You would want a few to blink under vikings or Broodlords, but a large blinkstalter army wouldn't stand any chance against any zerg or terran late game mix. My reference to the stephano build was purely an example of how stalkers (or blinkstalkers) have to have room to maenouver in order to fend off roaches, when you cant retreat any further blink isnt much use. i also think that it is partly a difference in how zerg and protoss armies are formed, you wouldnt be surprised to see a lategame army consist of purely corrupter BL infestor, but what about carrier VR HT as a late-game composition, never in a million years. The protoss has to have those meat-shield units to protect the higher tech damage dealing units. I also apologise as my first post was a bit QQ and unclear, but the roach is definitely not a terrible and useless unit. | ||
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alonth
Israel36 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On May 06 2012 19:33 Markwerf wrote: Or just buff the capital ships slightly which I would like to see. For example buff the battlecruiser air to ground damage a bit so BCs become viable in TvP like they once were. Give terrans an option if they don't like MMM lategame. It might not be fantastic in higher levels but lower level terrans might not get as frustated by being rolled by chargelots lategame. Carrier slight buff in damage couldn't be bad, it's so far from good now anyways. Actually, carriers have the highest dps of any unit in the game. They actually are good units if used correctly. I've played puCK a few times where he indeed went carrier/void ray/mothership. It's just not something you see frequently since so many players have dismissed the carrier. It's similar to the idea of the speed warp prism, where protoss players fail to use the WP to drop Templar. They have also dismissed the speed WP as a bad idea that can "just be sniped by vikings". | ||
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