EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 100
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Mayd
Finland251 Posts
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:03 sCCrooked wrote: This is not a good comparison. The roach/ling or ling/bling all-ins are not what are the issue here. Its the basic first step in a macro build that's able to kill Zerg off so easily all the way up through master. A better comparison is not the first roaches, but if Zerg were somehow able to pull a reliable win % off of their first 4-6 lings. The point I was trying to illustrate is that making small mistakes can lead to losses as any race, not just Zerg. It may have been more apt to say "well, I can lose my initial hellions by not paying attention to them for .5 seconds and getting them surrounded by speedlings, and then I have zero map control or ability to push on most ladder maps if that happens, so the Zerg can play super greedy and there's almost nothing I can do until 10 minutes into the game." Now this, I agree with. Losing that many drones with proper defenses being made is a little silly. If you really have that much stuff, hellions shouldn't be able to touch you unless they made a shit-ton of them or something and you didn't scout it. The thing is that hellions are so cost-effective and can often outright win games if the Z makes a single critical mistake. Z simply does not have anything that early without using an all-in type of build in which case everyone just cries "omgZsocheezy". If you prepare for hellions properly, you end up spending a lot more than T since making that reactor and factory is just preparation for later. Z do not use roaches so much vs late-game, so the trade is not even. If there were something we could upgrade in the queens or lings or anything that we actually use elsewhere in the game flow, I'm sure the complaints would just about vanish. Something people often miss about reactor hellion, though, is that you cut a lot of units to get them out. You're excessively vulnerable unless you control the hellions perfectly, since typically you're going to be sitting on 4 hellions, 6-8 marines, a bunker, and an incomplete wall at your natural if you don't scout a bust coming. Yes, it's very fragile for the Zerg, but it's also very fragile for the Terran; both players are relying on controlling everything properly, or you can lose the game. I understand that Zerg has to go allin to effectively punish the Terran's mistakes, so it's much more risky, but that's kind of just how the metagame works right now, I don't think it's necessarily broken. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: This kind of thread is why I feel everyone should have a sc2 profile linked to their name. Like after posts, it would say bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/masters/gmasters. It really helps when talking about balance and other issues when you know you're not talking to an extremely low level player that is a I watch every tournament theorycraft pro...that bases everything off one series in one tournament to show why something is so imbalanced. I'm willing to do this lol. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Yeah +1 for this. I think it would really go through a lot of the BS | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: This kind of thread is why I feel everyone should have a sc2 profile linked to their name. Like after posts, it would say bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/masters/gmasters. It really helps when talking about balance and other issues when you know you're not talking to an extremely low level player that is a I watch every tournament theorycraft pro...that bases everything off one series in one tournament to show why something is so imbalanced. You can usually tell anyway, but yeah, it'd be nice. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:12 corpuscle wrote: I understand that Zerg has to go allin to effectively punish the Terran's mistakes, so it's much more risky, but that's kind of just how the metagame works right now, I don't think it's necessarily broken. Its not really broken as some claim, but I really did think the OL speed adjustment was necessary so we at least have a chance to see everything and prepare. I think just practicing against it over and over again (if opponent is masters or higher) is a good way to teach yourself to not call things "broken" so easily, but honestly how many of the player base are willing to actually do that? Most these days are just casual bronzes. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:54 sCCrooked wrote: Its not really broken as some claim, but I really did think the OL speed adjustment was necessary so we at least have a chance to see everything and prepare. I think just practicing against it over and over again (if opponent is masters or higher) is a good way to teach yourself to not call things "broken" so easily, but honestly how many of the player base are willing to actually do that? Most these days are just casual bronzes. I'm totally okay with the OL speed change, there's too much T and P can do in the mid-early game that Zerg can just die to if they don't know it's coming, which is boring and stupid. The queen buff is going too far. | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23579 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: This kind of thread is why I feel everyone should have a sc2 profile linked to their name. Like after posts, it would say bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/masters/gmasters. It really helps when talking about balance and other issues when you know you're not talking to an extremely low level player that is a I watch every tournament theorycraft pro...that bases everything off one series in one tournament to show why something is so imbalanced. I like the idea, would be nice to know  | ||
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Lovely_US
United States94 Posts
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
Oh yes wow arena like bnet bm would be really nice | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On May 06 2012 18:41 DooMDash wrote: I would love to see both vikings corruptors, and void rays receive damage nerfs, as well as the colossus receiving a health reduction. The main reason those units have such high damage is for the colossus, but if the colossus had less HP those air units wouldn't need the high damage, and capitol ships in return would become more viable. Bul, oh er wrong. The issues with capital ships, are that they are freaking slow, You just need to get a large pack of them, which takes time, and then you lose to multi-prone attacks, oh and Battlecruiser attack sucks, who was the genius to make a slow unit with short range attack. And Void Ray needs buff, not nerf, when did you see Void Rays in tournaments last time? | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On May 06 2012 17:01 naastyOne wrote: about overlord speed increase: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w1rfRwIuXTg haha, brilliant! Nerf raxes! | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 06 2012 18:41 DooMDash wrote: I would love to see both vikings corruptors, and void rays receive damage nerfs, as well as the colossus receiving a health reduction. The main reason those units have such high damage is for the colossus, but if the colossus had less HP those air units wouldn't need the high damage, and capitol ships in return would become more viable. Or just buff the capital ships slightly which I would like to see. For example buff the battlecruiser air to ground damage a bit so BCs become viable in TvP like they once were. Give terrans an option if they don't like MMM lategame. It might not be fantastic in higher levels but lower level terrans might not get as frustated by being rolled by chargelots lategame. Carrier slight buff in damage couldn't be bad, it's so far from good now anyways. | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On May 06 2012 19:30 naastyOne wrote: Bul, oh er wrong. The issues with capital ships, are that they are freaking slow, You just need to get a large pack of them, which takes time, and then you lose to multi-prone attacks, oh and Battlecruiser attack sucks, who was the genius to make a slow unit with short range attack. And Void Ray needs buff, not nerf, when did you see Void Rays in tournaments last time? Didn't Genuis kill a bunch of codeS terrans 3 gate prox voidraying them on the way to the last GSL finals (I definitely remeber at least one good one)... Anyway, they're fine as they are and they don't do that well vs carrier/BC anyway, despite that being the original stated design intention. The general idea seems sound though but its a bit big to mess with all those numbers at once. Carriers just need that interceptor twin attack making a single so it scales better with/against ups, throw in better range/interceptor recall for some BW style overrated carrier micro and everyNony will be happy. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On May 06 2012 18:41 DooMDash wrote: I would love to see both vikings corruptors, and void rays receive damage nerfs, as well as the colossus receiving a health reduction. The main reason those units have such high damage is for the colossus, but if the colossus had less HP those air units wouldn't need the high damage, and capitol ships in return would become more viable. Corrupters have such high damage because they're Zergs only real committed AA defense. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: This kind of thread is why I feel everyone should have a sc2 profile linked to their name. Like after posts, it would say bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/masters/gmasters. It really helps when talking about balance and other issues when you know you're not talking to an extremely low level player that is a I watch every tournament theorycraft pro...that bases everything off one series in one tournament to show why something is so imbalanced. Please. I understand that TL wants an open forum for discussion which is perfectly reasonable, but having a requirement of linking your b.net profile to be shown in strategy section posts would be a nice addition. However I know some people would argue that they either don't have time, don't feel inclined to play ladder games or feel that their understanding is higher than their actual playing ability so there's no way this would ever happen. | ||
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