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How to E-Sports (Expectancies and Starters) - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 08 2012 02:13 GMT
#81
On May 08 2012 00:34 spbelky wrote:
This is one of those posts where it's hard to reply with anything other than, "Thank you."

The content is very informative and it's difficult to find much to discuss because the original is so comprehensive.


Don't worry, this is what I enjoy doing most and a simple form of appreciation makes me feel like I did something worthwhile.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 11 2012 18:26 GMT
#82
Cleaned up some formatting code.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 23 2012 16:17 GMT
#83
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=339635 -- Added to recommended readings.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 06 2012 01:53 GMT
#84
Added full credentials (some people were using it as reference to my qualifications).
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
June 06 2012 01:58 GMT
#85
God damn. You really love writing a lot, do you?

Great work. =)
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-06 02:06:08
June 06 2012 02:05 GMT
#86
This is actually my pathetic way of raging from bad experiences or differing views.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 17:48:51
June 19 2012 17:46 GMT
#87
The Do's and Don't's [How to view and address your contributors] has been accordingly updated with some new suggestions and things to be aware of.

The Do's and Don't's [How to view and address your contributors]

This is your workforce, this is your troop of men/women willing to do what it takes to bloom your organization into something full-fledged, real and legitimate. They are also volunteers, let's remember that and so they should be treated as people taking time out of their lives and day to do that. While I highlighted the fact that you both need each other, only one of you is getting the better deal (arguably).
  • Organizations should note that these are volunteers, not employees. There are responsibilities, duties and expectations, but to work under the idea that "you must do what I tell you" is both a bad way to approach your workline and shows a misunderstanding of how the organization-to-volunteer relationship works. When you must draw the line of delegator to worker, there is no longer a common goal in each other's minds and so the relationship should be reassessed. A volunteer does not work for you, he works for the experience and with you to achieve what your organization desires. While this may seem like a semantical way to see things, there is a huge distinguishment of how to perceive the connections within a company.

  • The more is not necessarily merrier. Having too many people delegating too many tasks and sitting on titles is not at all useful or contributory. Everyone should work with their duties in mind and be proactive about it. Titles summarizes one's potential strength and for informative purposes for people on the outside of the organization (so they know who to contact about what).

  • Leaders are not positions of power, but positions of direction. This doesn't mean that you cannot manage a team of helpers, it just means that you can't order them to do what you want them to do without considering their own personal schedule. Leniency is asked on both sides and consideration that, yes, volunteers want to volunteer, but they also have other obligations in life and you must be aware of that. Those who go up and beyond for the organization should be awarded and commended for that.

  • Make sure everyone is on the same page. As an organization grows, so do the forms of communication and the number of times you need to tie your shoelaces. That is to say that things become loose the longer the strings of workers and the bigger loop-backs you must make. Weekly meetings help with this as it serves as an information center point, realigns everyone's common goals and highlights who does what, who can help with who and what's on the way in terms of content and future plans. Weekly meetings reorients everyone back into seeing each other as communicative and approachful human beings while also assuring everyone that this is still a team effort.

  • Everyone is here to help. As simplistic as that sounds, some organizers or leaders of an organization tend to forget about this when things get a little heated. Despite things not going exactly as expected or a person is not doing up to par to your expectation, it's generally understood that that person is there to help you and your organization. Treat him or her with some understanding and respect/gratitude/appreciation. Although the finished product is lacking, the effort is still there and that that person is working with or for you for the sake of the organization's livelihood. Knowing that, finding a concensus on where to best put one's talent and ability to it's maximum's use is best. If said contributor is not living up to your standards, then there is no reason to continue a relationship between you and the volunteer, avoid conflicts and just do what is best for both parties.

  • Know the extent of what you're asking: sometimes you may be relying too much on one person that is a three-man job. While it is great that some volunteers are more productive than others, do not over-extend them to multiple tasks that require a lot of attention or devoted time. If you need someone to manage your social media site on the fly? Find the suited member of your team to do the job rather than pile on that "little itty bit" to someone's who's already doing so much more. Knowing the lengths you can ask someone to do something as well as realizing that they mainly want to do what they were recruited on (unless specificed otherwise), helps ensure low stress levels and fluidity of delegated tasks assigned to the right person.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 19 2012 18:20 GMT
#88
"Eight Things to be Aware of" has been updated

Eight Things to be Aware of

1. Organizations that promise you the possibility of travel should clarify what that means. In most cases, if you are within proximity of the event (same state for example), they will help pay for part of your trip. This is not always the case and usually; no travel is actually included (especially if you don't live anywhere near the venues).

2. Communication is the key to working the best alongside other contributors. Don't hesitate to ask questions, volunteer a new task or duty and see what you can make out of it. E-Sports is new and so trying new things within the scene is totally acceptable.

3. Remain professional; outrages, demands, taking advantage of publicly used features the organization offers (such as PPV content paid by the group) for personal use over work-related content is typically frowned upon.

4. Being genuine and asking questions when unsure or how you can further improve yourself displays a real sense of character and admittance that you have much to learn. No matter how much previous experience you have in something, be mindful of the idea that in some areas, you are not entirely an expert.

5. Although E-Sports works largely on reputation, impressions and relationships: treat everyone as people and not potential opportunities. If you treat people like business opportunities, you will only get missed chances to succeed. Genuine interest in others comes around and goes around.

6. Try to avoid arguing when in disagreement: Behind every contrasting thought is a logic, whether emotional or rational, that forms within someone's mind. Figure a line of reasoning that shows how benefitting you ultimately helps benefit themselves.

7. Based on personal experience, organizations that are clear in what tasks they seek, job title and are thorough in their interviews are the ones who care the most about their contributors and will generally be more appreciative of your work [subject to vary, this is based on personal experience].

8. Know the team, know the staff, know the players. It's one thing to know how to do your job, as mundane or obvious as it may be, but it helps work fluidity, cooperation and understanding of your place if you learn to be familiar with everyhone and friendly. There are expectations of professionalism, but remember that everyone is there to have fun doing something contributory to the culture around. Appearing cold, moodless and unopionated may sometimes turn people off and cause a shift in independency leading to less opportunities and even less projects for you to be a part of. Get yourself introduced, be a bit personable and approaching and from there, establish a real connection with the organization to further your own reasoning to work with the group.

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 19 2012 18:23 GMT
#89
Triple post, sorry, but thanks for the new piece of work that is worth reading: E-Sports and Its Relevance to Commerical Sponsorships (credit to: elementalsc)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
June 19 2012 22:09 GMT
#90
Impressive work Torte! Thank you for taking the time to put this together
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
LavendrGooms
Profile Joined May 2011
United States134 Posts
June 19 2012 22:22 GMT
#91
Just read through this for the first time. Very impressive!
www.twitch.tv/lavendrgooms
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 19 2012 22:24 GMT
#92
I'm more impressed you guys read this! It's a long but easy read!

Thank you for the kind words.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
PuPu
Profile Joined September 2011
Finland120 Posts
June 20 2012 00:21 GMT
#93
Good stuff ^^
"Mmm, It's nice"
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 20 2012 15:10 GMT
#94
thank you
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
fams
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada731 Posts
June 20 2012 17:55 GMT
#95
I am going to have to reiterate what Chobopeon already touched on, in saying that this post is fairly inaccurate when talking about "how newcomers can get involved with eSports as more than just a fan".

1. Compensation. As Chobopeon said, compensation is definitely there. You should probably not expect to make piles of money, and definitely not right away, but there is a lot of compensation to be had. This is strictly speaking about "lower level positions", just to clarify.

Based on what I read at the bottom of this post, the OP's experiences within the industry are limited.

Most established organizations will offer compensation. I have yet to come across one that has not. Even smaller budget organizations such as ESFI offer compensation. From salary, to hardware to trips to events - compensation is there, but it must be earned.

2. Getting started at a team, league, community-site or media outlet is much easier than it seems. Even if you have no relevant job experience or education, you can usually find a volunteer position, and prove yourself and work your way to something better. You can also do this part time as you continue with school or a regular job.

Contacting organizations within eSports and handing in a resume (it doesn't have to be special or filled with work experience) is the best way to get started. Simply approaching an eSport organization in the same way you would a regular "mainstream" entry-level position is your best bet.

Now, just to touch on the "compensation" point of this a little more. Pushing the money, free trips and swag aside for a moment - eSports offers a world of opportunities that most people don't even know exist. Yes this means for the lowest of the low as well - eSports journalists and tournament admins.

The OP touched on this a little, however I feel as though it should be put into a little more perspective.

1. Work experience. The skills you learn from working in the eSports industry are incredibly valuable.

2. References. By proving yourself in the eSports industry (even if just volunteering) you will be working with people who can give you a really good reference when searching for future positions - in eSports or otherwise.

3. Personal growth. By introducing yourself to the "working" side of eSports, I guarantee you that you will be exposed to a number of things you would otherwise miss out on in a regular mainstream work environment. For instance - dealing with a vast number of different cultures, language barriers, time zones (yes this is actually important), as well as learning how to work with personalities (pro-gamers are our celebrities). And in general, you will learn to use a variety of different software and tools that you can apply to almost any business related position and general skills such as public speaking, team work, problem solving, etc.

Additionally, if you are lucky and are able to travel to events - anyone who has ever worked at an eSport event can probably attest to this - you will learn so much and be exposed to so many learning opportunities you never knew existed.


I tried to keep this as short as possible, and if something seems a little vague or weird, please let me know and I will clarify.
But my main point, if you read nothing else read this - eSports is an amazing experience for anyone to get involved with and there are a lot of incentives, both monetary and not. Yes you will have to work hard in order to earn your keep, but the rewards are there.
http://www.twitter.com/famsytron/
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-20 18:41:25
June 20 2012 18:36 GMT
#96
1. Compensation. As Chobopeon said, compensation is definitely there. You should probably not expect to make piles of money, and definitely not right away, but there is a lot of compensation to be had. This is strictly speaking about "lower level positions", just to clarify.

Based on what I read at the bottom of this post, the OP's experiences within the industry are limited.

Most established organizations will offer compensation. I have yet to come across one that has not. Even smaller budget organizations such as ESFI offer compensation. From salary, to hardware to trips to events - compensation is there, but it must be earned.


From my experiences in the three main domains (and you can see my credentials at the bottom the of the first page), there is no compensation for what you do. "earned" is a subjective view and can be more tallied by how long you work somewhere rather than how much (and while they do sound like they are congruent, they aren't always). This topic is about starting and getting into E-Sports and contributing, there is no compensation because most organizations dictate someone's value by dedication and that's evaluated by production. EG doesn't offer immediate paid jobs, but you go higher in ranks the longer and harder you work there. This is similar for all organizations, though some misadvertise it. ESFI offers comepensation and lodging, but it depends also on your proximity to events. If you're in Canada, you will never be paid to go to events and even lodging is unlikely to be paid as well. It all depends on the person, but don't let words advertise dictate a truth unless experienced.

2. Getting started at a team, league, community-site or media outlet is much easier than it seems. Even if you have no relevant job experience or education, you can usually find a volunteer position, and prove yourself and work your way to something better. You can also do this part time as you continue with school or a regular job.

Contacting organizations within eSports and handing in a resume (it doesn't have to be special or filled with work experience) is the best way to get started. Simply approaching an eSport organization in the same way you would a regular "mainstream" entry-level position is your best bet.

Now, just to touch on the "compensation" point of this a little more. Pushing the money, free trips and swag aside for a moment - eSports offers a world of opportunities that most people don't even know exist. Yes this means for the lowest of the low as well - eSports journalists and tournament admins.

The OP touched on this a little, however I feel as though it should be put into a little more perspective.


The "do it for the experience and networking" is the entire mantra of this piece. "touched upon it a little" is an understatement.

Everything else I agree with and look to be slight reiterations of what I've written, thanks for the suggestions and clarifications. You highlight too much as "travel to events" when it isn't necessarily true for a large domain. Travel expenses paid by an organization is subject to three things: 1. will it pay out for the organization with the amount of content 2. The cost (air travel is expensive obviously) and 3. your position. If your job is a writer and they have another writer very much closer to the event, he will be probably have his lodging paid if he can get there by car (this is common). So although you may have the experience, if the job of at-event interviews and you're not an iconic figure noticeable by face and credibility, you may not necessarily go to events.

Of course this is all based on experiences and when I worked with certain organizations they weren't necessarily paying people, but now they do if they have a more financial backing.


The bottom-line being that although compensation is great, it should never be the driving point to doing what you want to do. I think that's a given, but if I'm modest with how I portray the industry given my experiences in event organization and management/informative and political writing as well as player-management, then I don't see that as an issue.

To underplay reward to better emphasize the sentimental reward that drives the majority of volunteers, then I think that's a fair protrayal. However, I think I am accurately describing both entry-level contributions as well most of the scene and some establish organizations.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
fams
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada731 Posts
June 20 2012 20:48 GMT
#97
On June 21 2012 03:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
From my experiences in the three main domains (and you can see my credentials at the bottom the of the first page), there is no compensation for what you do. "earned" is a subjective view and can be more tallied by how long you work somewhere rather than how much (and while they do sound like they are congruent, they aren't always). This topic is about starting and getting into E-Sports and contributing, there is no compensation because most organizations dictate someone's value by dedication and that's evaluated by production. EG doesn't offer immediate paid jobs, but you go higher in ranks the longer and harder you work there. This is similar for all organizations, though some misadvertise it. ESFI offers comepensation and lodging, but it depends also on your proximity to events. If you're in Canada, you will never be paid to go to events and even lodging is unlikely to be paid as well. It all depends on the person, but don't let words advertise dictate a truth unless experienced.


To underplay reward to better emphasize the sentimental reward that drives the majority of volunteers, then I think that's a fair protrayal. However, I think I am accurately describing both entry-level contributions as well most of the scene and some establish organizations.


1. Looking at your "credentials", my only thought is: "I would not expect compensation from those organizations considering how underdeveloped they are." ESFI I already commented on. VT is/was a semi-pro team, and iS is really new and growing well from what I have seen and heard.

2. Earned is not really subjective. It has always been the same at every organization I have ever come across when dealing with entry-level eSports positions.

You usually have a trial period (2-3 months usually) after which you will discuss what kind of compensation is befitting. If no compensation is befitting - which happens - then either the trial period is extended or the person leaves or is let go.

I have seen so many people get amazing opportunities in eSports for entry level positions where the organization was looking to actually pay the person should they prove they were reliable, and they just were not reliable. The person would always leave after a week. Very rarely did I see entry-level applicants make it through their trial periods. And let me tell you, it is not difficult to make it through a trial period with a good impression.

3. EG does offer immediately paid jobs. They post about them on Twitter often enough. Do they pay every new entry-level writer/contributor they get? Of course not. That said, those people are not full time, and only work very sparse hours. Even then, they are compensated with incentives from what I have seen.

4. ESFI has dozens of employees with varying levels of expertise. Certain employees are flown to every event when possible. Otherwise, the "base team" is usually whoever is closest. And with a company like that, with many volunteer writers, that is the best way. That chance to travel to an event, etc, is compensation for their hard work during the times when they cannot go to events.

5. I assume your comment about Canada was directed at ESFI? Even if you are talking about ESFI exclusively, that is only partially true. ESFI has paid half of a Canadians ticket (Edmonton to Providence no less) as well as lodging, etc.

6. Your last statement is not giving a "fair portrayal" of the eSports industry whatsoever. I have no clue what "established" organizations you are referring to, but I would love to know.
http://www.twitter.com/famsytron/
GenoPewPew
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States347 Posts
June 20 2012 21:08 GMT
#98
It's hard to get into an organization that pays. (I run an eSports start up)
Caster for GosuGamers.Net and www.binary-gaming.org for my team!
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-20 21:34:33
June 20 2012 21:23 GMT
#99
On June 21 2012 05:48 fams wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2012 03:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
From my experiences in the three main domains (and you can see my credentials at the bottom the of the first page), there is no compensation for what you do. "earned" is a subjective view and can be more tallied by how long you work somewhere rather than how much (and while they do sound like they are congruent, they aren't always). This topic is about starting and getting into E-Sports and contributing, there is no compensation because most organizations dictate someone's value by dedication and that's evaluated by production. EG doesn't offer immediate paid jobs, but you go higher in ranks the longer and harder you work there. This is similar for all organizations, though some misadvertise it. ESFI offers comepensation and lodging, but it depends also on your proximity to events. If you're in Canada, you will never be paid to go to events and even lodging is unlikely to be paid as well. It all depends on the person, but don't let words advertise dictate a truth unless experienced.


To underplay reward to better emphasize the sentimental reward that drives the majority of volunteers, then I think that's a fair protrayal. However, I think I am accurately describing both entry-level contributions as well most of the scene and some establish organizations.


1. Looking at your "credentials", my only thought is: "I would not expect compensation from those organizations considering how underdeveloped they are." ESFI I already commented on. VT is/was a semi-pro team, and iS is really new and growing well from what I have seen and heard <- Not relevant, but mentioning his name is always worth it.

2. Earned is not really subjective. It has always been the same at every organization I have ever come across when dealing with entry-level eSports positions.

You usually have a trial period (2-3 months usually) after which you will discuss what kind of compensation is befitting. If no compensation is befitting - which happens - then either the trial period is extended or the person leaves or is let go.

I have seen so many people get amazing opportunities in eSports for entry level positions where the organization was looking to actually pay the person should they prove they were reliable, and they just were not reliable. The person would always leave after a week. Very rarely did I see entry-level applicants make it through their trial periods. And let me tell you, it is not difficult to make it through a trial period with a good impression.

3. EG does offer immediately paid jobs. They post about them on Twitter often enough. Do they pay every new entry-level writer/contributor they get? Of course not. That said, those people are not full time, and only work very sparse hours. Even then, they are compensated with incentives from what I have seen.

4. ESFI has dozens of employees with varying levels of expertise. Certain employees are flown to every event when possible. Otherwise, the "base team" is usually whoever is closest. And with a company like that, with many volunteer writers, that is the best way. That chance to travel to an event, etc, is compensation for their hard work during the times when they cannot go to events.

5. I assume your comment about Canada was directed at ESFI? Even if you are talking about ESFI exclusively, that is only partially true. ESFI has paid half of a Canadians ticket (Edmonton to Providence no less) as well as lodging, etc.

6. Your last statement is not giving a "fair portrayal" of the eSports industry whatsoever. I have no clue what "established" organizations you are referring to, but I would love to know.


5. is not about ESFI, no. It's in general. Brent is one of the most level-headed people I've had the fortune of working with (Derek does great interviews too, love him).

6. Naming specifics only leads to splititng hairs similar to your point in #1 where you rely on my personal credentials to assist in generalities.

Like I said, the topic in general and lays out the overall goal and viewpoint that even if there were rare opportunities for compensation, it shouldn't be a title or central focal point of this whole topic. While you may know people with different scenarios, anecdotal experiences or contexts with their backed expertise, there are others who obviously haven't had the same fortune. It's easy to find exceptions to a landscaping article that sets two major foundations from one person's experiences (extended or not). This is based both on my experiences as well as those, high or low-level people, I've had the fortune of talking to over the years.

This is all in my introduction by the way:
I'm writing this with the idea of both ensuring people who are interested in working in the industry are aware of what to look for, how to get involved and what to expect when working within this scene. Also, I hope to advise those who manage volunteers, players, contributors on how to not only treat them properly, but to also sell your organization over others.

Upon reaching 20,000 posts, I've come to realize both two things: the misconception of what people should seek or understand when wanting to do that little extra in this E-Sports scene and how organizations, big or small, usually treat their volunteers/contributors. This guide aims to both state the obvious of fair treatment, considerations of both sides and draw upon my own experiences to both outline what's to be expected for up and coming contributors.


It's a fair portayal to tell people not to expect compensation directly or even as a path towards. Any form of compensation is the result of passionate and dedicated work for the sake of its production and its spread or engagement to the audience or community. Even if you or I were wrong/right, I don't feel a need to change the topic in a manner that better reflects a positive likelihood or either monetary benefits or travel because the values embedded in this text is both understanding the real treat of working in a growing industry + the expected treatment of organizations should apply to their volunteers. Jobs that were before unpaid with organizations are provided with compensation and its all based on the company's financial backing, amount of work at that time rather than before and so on and so forth. With such fluctuation and specificity to a particular organization's state, it's not worth dividing what to look for if you're looking to be compensated for your work. Places most established like IPL or MLG may implicitly offer pay, but it's not the focus of the article and people are more than welcome to try and apply.

Anything else beyond that is the result of a person's individual work or dedication. Money in E-Sports is not necessarily a tabooed topic, but the emphasis of passion and the delight to do what you want to do and finding your place in this growing industry and culture is a much more relevant one for those seeking entry as well as those establishing themselves. If you disagree then we clearly had different experiences and interaction with a different set of people (both are acceptable, just contrasted).

I think an extension to this article and I'll agree with you on this, is that good work and a large list of experiences may lead to paid jobs. But this is all dependent on that "right time, right place" scenario we see a lot (that also, is pretty fluctuating [going to events helps your luck, improves networking, etc]. I'll consider this tacking this on, but it's not something on the mind right now
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 20 2012 21:32 GMT
#100
ok, I gotta type slower.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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