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BreakeR.
Austria220 Posts
On April 11 2012 00:53 Amlitzer wrote: Tennis is an awful sport so I hope SC2 becomes nothing like it. Long live team leagues! Lol Tennis is one of the best Sports ever. >.< | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
On April 10 2012 21:10 iNbluE wrote: Atp ranking is a joke... Of course a Swiss guy would say that, lol. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
In Tennis there's numerous tiny games where you basically start fresh again and again and play for a short time until someone fails to return the ball, in SC2 the matches last much longer. It's in my opinion more comparable to chess if anything, even though there too the differences are pretty obvious(turn-based vs realtime). However even so, I agree with you mostly. I personally think that they should try to start pushing more multiplayer aspects into the game, with the proper maps stuff like 2v2 tournaments could be a lot of fun to watch(If they were played by dedicated pros who practice same amounts as the current 1v1 pros instead of how it currently is with it mostly being casual) and I'm sure we'd see a ton of amazing things. I'm pretty sad that SC2 is just a 1v1 game, because I'm sure that even the casuals would appreciate the 2v2 and 4v4 games. I at least enjoy watching them if they are high level, but the general level of 2v2 and 4v4 just isn't too high yet because no one practices that. Tennis also has 2v2 tournaments!  | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
a) Tennis is also a team sport (Fed Cup, tennis clubs form teams who compete with other, at least in Germany on an amateur level). b) Realizing that professional SC2 and Tennis have much in common is just stating the obvious. I mean, if you had abstracted from Tennis and included table tennis, badminton or even chess I wouldn't say anything, but seriously: realizing that in both games 1v1 is the most popular mode is like... woho. What comes next, we should also abandon 2v2 because people like to play/watch 1v1 more? c) If there are no teams, please tell me, how exactly players are supposed to live on pro gaming? Who is going to pay for everything, food, shelter, equipment, tourney fees.... ? Afaik there is no international E-sports federation with a budget of $50000000 gained from tax money/sponsors that is distributed to national federations who themselves pay the players. And how many players can live from personal sponsorship? 2? 3? 10? d) If you honestly think that teams and team leagues are irrelevant, I dont know what to say. Even if it was possible for a player to live on pro gaming through individual sponsorship/national funding, the success of team sports like soccer, basketball........ compared to (largely) individual sports like Tennis/Table Tennis/Boxing should convince you that it is probably a good idea to have teams competing with each other in some sort of league.  In Germany public interest in Tennis decreased rapidly after the retirement of Stefanie Graf, Boris Becker and Michael Stich. Teams however can exist forever | ||
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
I am pretty sure both spawned quite massive topics. | ||
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yawgmoth
7 Posts
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templar rage
United States2509 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:47 Djin)ftw( wrote: I dont agree and think the whole argument is rather stupid to be honest. a) Tennis is also a team sport (Fed Cup, tennis clubs form teams who compete with other, at least in Germany on an amateur level). b) Realizing that professional SC2 and Tennis have much in common is just stating the obvious. I mean, if you had abstracted from Tennis and included table tennis, badminton or even chess I wouldn't say anything, but seriously: realizing that in both games 1v1 is the most popular mode is like... woho. What comes next, we should also abandon 2v2 because people like to play/watch 1v1 more? c) If there are no teams, please tell me, how exactly players are supposed to live on pro gaming? Who is going to pay for everything, food, shelter, equipment, tourney fees.... ? Afaik there is no international E-sports federation with a budget of $50000000 gained from tax money/sponsors that is distributed to national federations who themselves pay the players. d) If you honestly think that team leagues are irrelevant, I dont know what to say. Even if it was possible for a player to live on pro gaming through individual sponsorship/national funding, the success of team sports like soccer, basketball........ compared to (largely) individual sports like Tennis/Table Tennis/Boxing should convince you that it is probably a good idea to have teams competing with each other in some sort of league. In Germany public interest in Tennis decreased rapidly after the retirement of Stefanie Graf, Boris Becker and Michael Stich. Teams however can exist forever1)Tennis is not a team sport. Taking a bunch of players from the same country and having them play against a bunch of players from another country doesn't make it a team sport. It's just taking a bunch of 1v1 matches and applying some arbitrary meaning to them as a group. SC2 team leagues are the same exact way. In fact, a "team" in SC2 is really nothing more than a bunch of players who share the same sponsors/managers and have each other as primary practice partners. I'm ignoring doubles/2v2, 3v3, 4v4 for this because it's pretty obvious they're not relevant to the conversation. 2)Maybe it is, but you're just shitting on the OP for the sake of shitting on him at this point IMO. 3)Um, the same exact way they currently are? Having a team obviously makes handling all those things much easier, but they are by no means a necessity. If they had to, the players could do all of that stuff themselves. 4)Again, taking a bunch of players and making them play against another bunch of players and arbitrarily calling that set of games a "team match" doesn't make it a team sport. If you want that illusion, then that's fine. Personally, I don't care much for team leagues, but I understand that a lot of people do, so they should keep them. However, trying to use them as an argument than an obviously individual sport is actually a team sport is absurd. | ||
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fenrysk
United States364 Posts
maybe the role of teams will increase when there are more offline team league events other than GSTL... a lot of the online team leagues are great for exposing us to the team and the players' play styles, but you don't get the same sense of teammate interaction that you see in the Team Liquid pictures and interviews, or between EG players at the Lair, or between KR teams in the GSTL i wanted to say something about hopefully in SC2 teams focus more on building their team franchise with their star players but that's already happening in some degree, but hopefully that'll grow further once the scene and games stabilize to a point where a player can get signed for more than just 1 year and hope to renew (this might require the emergence of more major team events, since some players on teams won't get any screen time in individual leagues for various reasons like funding or being a b-teamer) Did anyone really care when Huk went from Liquid to EG? Or MC from oGs to SK? I cared a lot more about Huk going from Liquid to EG because Liquid is a team that really builds their players as part of the franchise. The rivalry between Liquid and EG was embodied in Huk vs Idra, and that was a great hook to the old tourneys where they competed against each other, but it all went away when Huk got signed (hell, EG even used it to promo Huk's acquisition, and smartly so). I didn't care as much for MC going from oGs to SK since at that point i had seen enough Korean teams and players splitting for various reasons, but i was still a little sad. | ||
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mockturtle
United States220 Posts
also with 100 entities to cheer for (players), fans choose a few of their favorites and we're split among several. with a team league, there's something like 10. this makes more fans for fewer entities and does a lot better job at concentrating the fanbase and generating interest in watching matches, buying merchandise, etc. | ||
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RayOfTheVoid
Norway95 Posts
Imo, a combination is the best solution ^^ | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
Anyway, I agree both sports have similarities. However, I don't believe SC2 really will grow as much as people think it will. For one thing only one game has succeded in gaining attention beyond that game's fans and that is Brood War. And as most of us know, BW isn't what it used to be. One of the main leagues was disbanded and viewership numbers and the general attention it draws is apparently lesser than say, pre-2010? Correct me if I'm wrong about this but if I remember right after the Saviour match-fixing incident, I heard that the BW in Korea has lost substantial blood. Beyond that, I think with the way LoL keeps getting attention (which is funny since that's very easy when the game instantly connects to streams) it might be tougher to keep SC2 grow. It's true that there are still two expansions to come but then again, one day SC3 or perhaps somehow another super good RTS (or maybe another MOBA game?) will come and very likely could dethrone SC2 or at least hurt its popularity. My main point is that there is no Tennis 2 that comes every 10 years. Nor there is a company that owns the right to the tennis as a game and sport. I believe these two are huge obstacles that get in the way of SC2's growth. With the level of control Blizzard wants to exert over Starcraft 2, I'm not sure how much it will continue growing. Furthermore, Wings of Liberty is a great game but it needs a lot of work, for example in my opinion it is quite boring to watch a Zerg player roll over a Protoss due to being 40-80 supply up, because if the Zerg player knows his thing, he'll be up that much supply and there isn't much what Protoss can do besides forcefielding very well. I hope HOTS can bring some excitement and tension to the game. The Wings of Liberty wasn't interesting in some aspects imo, there are too many simple 1-a units and not many units that specifically shine with good control. | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
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Blandon
United States7 Posts
Although it must really stink when 90% of your readers completely and hopelessly miss the entire point you are making. Ex: "StarCraft can't be Tennis because Tennis is boring and you use a racket not a keyboard, derp-derp." Seriously, I got dumber reading 8 pages of comments from people who probably didn't even read the post. I think the structure of SC2 and Tennis is a GREAT comparison. Obviously it's not a perfect side-by-side comparison, it's not supposed to be, it's a example of how an existing format could be applied to our great esport. Your are right. Both Tennis and SC2 are individual sports. People on this board are getting hung up on the team aspect. Yes, SC2 needs teams to train, take care of money, get sponsors, provide housing, and what-not, but the appeal for (most) fans is not seeing which team did best in the GSL, it's who won. Fans follow players from multiple teams just like Tennis fans follow players from multiple countries. The Team aspect of SC2 is an extra addition that gives fans even more to get into, but you are correct, the main draw is the individual players. Teams are a bonus and one of the great things that makes SC unique. I think have "Grand Slam" tournaments is a great idea. A ranking system along side that would be very difficult, but not impossible. Tennis has the advantage of being hundreds of years old and the tournaments they have now are an age-old tradition, but that's what SC2 should strive for; a consistent SC2 YEAR/SEASON, with major tourneys spread out with consideration for each other and the attending players. That's going to be hard because each SC2 tournament want to be Wimbledon, the biggest tourney of the year. And also each tourney has the right to run their own format, while the Grand Slams are all 2-weeks of best of 5 set. It would be nice if the big SC2 tourneys came up with an elimination format similar to each other. But I guess differences between tourneys add to their individual charm. Other SC2 and Tennis comparisons (jokes): Cannon rush/six-pool = drop shots 1 base all-in = Serve and volley Map pool = Court surface type Team tourneys = Davis Cup (I think someone mentioned that already) Storm/Fungal/EMP = Overhead Smash Supply block = Double Fault Rage Quit = Racket Smash :D | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
Although I hope it's not the future, I want SC2 to become NFL big, not tennis popular. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On April 11 2012 04:14 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I agree with the general idea, even if a couple of your remarks (huk to EG, no big deal) were a little inflamitory. Although I hope it's not the future, I want SC2 to become NFL big, not tennis popular. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. I'll be happy when SC2 is on par with the popularity of darts. | ||
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Arghnews
United Kingdom169 Posts
And to all the people who "cared" when Huk went from Liquid to EG... Get a life. You know that deep down you don't really give a fuck, just want something to speak about. I too enjoyed the rivalry, however the OP promoted that in his tennis model anyway. My trouble with team funding is that, unfortunately, like in tennis, EG.Strifecrow never achieved, and (sadly) will probably never achieve anywhere near as much success as Idra or Huk, yet was still part of the team under the same sponsorship. IMO that's not right, as results, when all is said and done, are what a >player< can base himself/herself on, and the awesome sponsorship was kinda undeserved, as Strifecrow never produced the results. Just using him as an example, of course, he is now out of EG (ages ago as I'm sure you all know), and I would be so bold as to suppose his lack of success contributed. Peace though, and GL in future Strife | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
I'm not entirely sure I agree about the individual stars vs teams aspect though. In BW there is a large contingent of fans who grow up learning teams, and follow players through those teams, rather than individuals. HotBid as an example lived and died by CJ, so much so that when the savior scandal happened it nearly stopped him from watching BW ever again. I think the same could happen in SC2 with sufficient support of team leagues, even looking at when HuK moved to EG not all of his fans followed him. While it will never be a pure team event, it's definitely much more of a team activity than something like tennis or golf. | ||
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fenrysk
United States364 Posts
That's going to be hard because each SC2 tournament want to be Wimbledon, the biggest tourney of the year. hopefully Blizzard's World Championships will help dispel some of that as it seems they will be giving out regional seeds to other major tournament organizers to have as part of their prize pools, so that way, all the major tourneys will all help lead into the World Championships in additional to Blizzard's national and regional qualifiers. Other SC2 and Tennis comparisons (jokes): Cannon rush/six-pool = drop shots 1 base all-in = Serve and volley Map pool = Court surface type Team tourneys = Davis Cup (I think someone mentioned that already) Storm/Fungal/EMP = Overhead Smash Supply block = Double Fault Rage Quit = Racket Smash well played sir | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
The reason why the argument in the OP is very weak is because it completely disregards the history of e-sports. Sure you can compare Sc2 as an individual sport to tennis as an individual sport but what's the point? To think of opportunities to grow Sc2 as an e-sport you should look at Starcraft 2 where it is now and where it could be. For example teams are an important part of the puzzle right now. Traditional fans have grown attached to them and that's not a bad thing. So there is no reason to not have team leagues. If you look at Sc2's predecessors Sc1 and Wc3 they both have/had high profile team leagues that were surrounded with a lot of hype. | ||
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