• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:51
CEST 13:51
KST 20:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence2Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups1WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments0SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion Playing StarCraft as 2 people on the same network [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence Pros React To: SoulKey's 5-Peat Challenge
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group C [ASL20] Ro16 Group B [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info! Is there English video for group selection for ASL
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1331 users

[D] Why the future of Pro-SC2 should be Tennis

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
YMCApylons
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Taiwan359 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 04:35:50
April 10 2012 00:07 GMT
#1
Why the future of Pro-SC2 should be Tennis

UPDATE: Some comments about Team Leagues, et cetera.
+ Show Spoiler +
When I posted, I thought people would flip out over the Arena-PPV stuff. I certainly guessed wrong there.

As I said:
Team leagues. In Korea, team leagues have had a chance to develop in a remarkably unique way, but it still seems to me like pounding a round peg in a square hole. In BW, players rarely jump ship, so players and teams can co-exist in a meaningful way. But ultimately, Starcraft is an individual game. Embrace it.


If the truth of this statement is not self-evident, nothing I say will affect your opinion.

Now, practice partners. Tennis players need practice partners too. Some people did point out the importance of developing builds and strategies in secret. That's a good point, I didn't consider that. So there is a legitimate team or clan function in players working together.

Proleague or GSTL. Yes, I am aware of SKT1 and KT. I've been watching the VODs on-and-off for five years. I acknowledged the unique environment in Korea. But it works in BW because players stick with their teams for life, unless they join the military. Developing snipers for players on opposing teams, creating race-matchup specialists...like Sundance, I get it. It's interesting. But the central drama of the match is the match, which is one player against another. If you want e-sports to go mainstream, cut out the fat, and focus on that.

So, teams...still an awkward third wheel in SC2. It has its charm, but if you count up the time SC2 teams are mentioned, versus players, its wildly in favor of individual players. Players have fan club threads. People stay up in strange time zones to cheer players, not teams. Be honest people. Again, I freely acknowledge that BW is unique, and teams have carved out a unique role.

I'm not anti-teams. If SC2 teams survive and thrive, that's great. I'm simply pointing out that there is another way of organizing players and events, that has been very successful, and it's worth discussing, learning from, and copying.

Davis Cup. Um, does anyone really care about Davis Cup?



[image loading]

Tennis should not really require any introduction. It's a massive international sport. My intent in this article is to show the parallels between tennis and pro-SC2, and why the Starcraft community should follow the tennis model more closely and intentionally. I am not affiliated with the business side of esports at all, this is purely an amateur's opinion.

Tennis and Starcraft as Games

1. Both are individual games. Unlike team sports, such as soccer or basketball, the game hinges on the performance of a single person, not a team.

2. Both are adversarial, personal fights. Unlike golf or bowling, you aren't simply playing to compare who is better at something. You are playing directly against each other. Unlike tournament poker, you aren't playing against a table of individual players (unless it's heads-up). It's a 1v1 sport.

3. You can play multiple games per day, many days in a row, many times a year. It's not boxing. Boxing is physically taxing in a way that Starcraft is not.

Tennis and Starcraft as Professional Sports

The nature of these games dictate how they are played as professional sports.

1. The individual player is the celebrity. In tennis, there are no teams, just individual stars. Tennis fans follow players like Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer. In Starcraft 2, people follow players like MarineKingPrime, Nestea, and Stephano. The teams hardly matter in SC2. When MC jumped from oGs to SK, the MC fans followed him. Compare that to baseball. People are fans of the team, not the players. When a player is traded, they cease being fans of that player. In Starcraft, as in tennis, the fan loyalty is to the player, not the team.

[image loading][image loading]
Superstars of their sport

2. The sport is set up as a series of tournaments. Dozens of people enter the tournament, and are eliminated in a series of individual matches structured into brackets. The matches are played over the course of weeks or days. In broadcasted tournaments, there is no way to show them all. They show selected matches from the early rounds. Just as there is a "Main Stage" in IPL or MLG, there is a "Centre Court" at Wimbledon. Only in the final rounds do they show every match.

[image loading]
Centre Court

3. Leagues don't matter. While each tournament organizer will have their own set of rules, they don't have the marketing power to force players to commit exclusively to an individual league. The player brings the fans, and the money.

4. Each match between the players is set up as a best-of-X series. Due to the inherent randomness present in any given set, and the relative shortness of each set, tournaments generally arrange a best-of-3, best-of-5, or best-of-7 to make for a satisfying length for the viewer, and to give a fair test of strength for the individual players.

5. It's an unequal world. The best players get all the money, attention and sponsorships. The merely good only receive a small fraction of that. Even devoted fans of the sport might not know who they are.
Tennis Top Earners
1. Federer, Roger (SUI) $69,746,521
2. Nadal, Rafael (ESP) $46,789,842
3. Djokovic, Novak (SRB) $36,206,641
4. Roddick, Andy (USA) $20,228,866
5. Murray, Andy (GBR) $20,200,873
...
46. Isner, John (USA) $3,813,768
47. Seppi, Andreas (ITA) $3,674,402
48. Mayer, Florian (GER) $3,459,506
49. Gambill, Jan-Michael (USA) $3,455,425
50. Troicki, Viktor (SRB) $3,410,683

SC2 Top Earners
1. Jang "MC" Min Chul (KOR) $277,420
2. Jeong "Mvp" Jong Hyeon (KOR) $257,570
3. Lim "NesTea" Jae Duk (KOR) $238,620
4. Mun "MMA" Seong-Won (KOR) $158,630
5. Lee "MarineKing" Jung Hoon (KOR) $148,480
...
46. FXOpenPavel "BratOK" Kuznetsov (RUS) $23,050
47. Park "Squirtle" Hyun Woo (KOR) $22,660
48. Kim "GanZI" Dong Ju (KOR) $22,340
49. Seung-Chul "sC" Kim (KOR) $21,960
50. Jian "Fenix" Carlo Morayra Alejo (PRU) $21,660

[image loading][image loading]
Winner takes all.

The Pro Tennis model as the future of SC2

1. A worldwide ranking system. The ATP assigns point values to tournament placements that players hold for a year. The point totals determine your ATP ranking. Starcraft should develop a similar ranking system. This has several advantages. It allows for proper seeding of brackets, to make them more fair. It encourages players to attend tournaments. It gives casual fans an immediate and easy way to determine underdogs in an match. It provides some tension and significance to tournament results over a year. Rather than a collection of individual events, we can talk about the rise and fall of a player.

To some extent, we already do this...have Nestea and MC already peaked? Are their glory days behind them? We can argue back-and-forth, but a ranking system, recognized by both players and tournaments, would give some structure to these stories. And stories are the lifeblood of sports commentary.

2. Focus on individual rivalries. Again, we already do this. Polt-vs-Stephano. MVP-vs-MMA. TLPD and Liquipedia provide an invaluable service in giving us the stats for matchups. Hopefully, Starcraft can develop epic rivalries like Nadal-Federer. Stories make sports more compelling.

3. Sponsorships should focus on players and tournaments, not teams. I don't have expertise in this, but it seems that team sponsorship is putting a round peg in a square hole. The dominant personalities are the players, not the team. The dominant media environment is the tournament, as there is no home court, no home team.
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEnFrS18xkc


4. Teams should be sports agencies, not teams. To some extent they already are. They handle money, media, sponsorships, branding, PR. Starcraft 2 players need practice partners, sure, but again, it's not a team sport. Did anyone really care when Huk went from Liquid to EG? Or MC from oGs to SK?

5. SC2 Tournaments should be run like tennis tournaments. Revenue from sponsorships, ticket sales, and broadcast rights. I don't want to go into the Arena-PPV debate, but I'll simply observe that tennis as a pro-sport grows by allowing casual viewers to watch for free. Then, as they get more into it, they pay to attend tournaments. PPV is not part of the equation.

6. Team leagues. In Korea, team leagues have had a chance to develop in a remarkably unique way, but it still seems to me like pounding a round peg in a square hole. In BW, players rarely jump ship, so players and teams can co-exist in a meaningful way. But ultimately, Starcraft is an individual game. Embrace it.

7. The "small" things. In tennis, the player is given a great deal of space. The players prep their minds in their private locker rooms, walk out, and get ready, and start playing. They decide, within certain time limits, when to serve. They don't do pre-game interviews. They have a press conference hours or days before the match, and an immediate post-game interview.

[image loading]
Hell, we even call them "Opens", just like tennis.
You must construct additional pylons.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
April 10 2012 00:13 GMT
#2
Reasonable argument... I like it!
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Cybren
Profile Joined February 2010
United States206 Posts
April 10 2012 00:13 GMT
#3
Why can't the future of Pro-SC2 be Pro-SC2?
The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
SpiZe
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada3640 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 00:14:39
April 10 2012 00:13 GMT
#4
That's a very interesting post, and I can see some similarities. However, I disagree on the team part. SC2 teams have fans just has sc2 players have fans. Some teams organize events, or other deliver other kind of contents such as interview, coverage etc... Teams aren't simply multiple players sharing sponsors or a group pf pratice partner with the same clan tag, they are more than that.

Other than that, good post, I never really saw the ressemblemce between tennis and SC2 and it's true that they are very similar. However, I feel like sc2 has a more personal side to the player, or maybe it's just that I don't follow tennis and making an ignorant statement.

EDIT : Oh yeah, and your title is funny, I originally thought you were saying that SC2 should evolve into tennis, not the same thing at all
paintfive
Profile Joined September 2011
785 Posts
April 10 2012 00:14 GMT
#5
The future of PRO SC2 will be PRO SC1
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
April 10 2012 00:17 GMT
#6
I really like your argument, but I feel that SC2 fits well with basketball too as fans are fans of both players and teams just like people can be fans of both Chris Paul and the LA Lakers.
darkness overpowering
howLiN
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Portugal1676 Posts
April 10 2012 00:17 GMT
#7
I agree with everything except with the teams part. I think SC2 teams function more as F1 teams: players represent a team, but they compete between each other, however a win for a player is also a win for the team.
Louuster
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2869 Posts
April 10 2012 00:19 GMT
#8
Completely disagree on the team thing, nothing like good old SKT vs KT proleague finals to remind us how much teams mean in this game.
Kim Taek Yong fighting~
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
April 10 2012 00:27 GMT
#9
I absolutely disagree with your rejection of team leagues. I consider myself a casual spectator but a serious player. There are one or two players who I follow because I became a fan of them at some point in the past, but otherwise I watch relatively little starcraft though I play quite a bit. The one exception is team leagues. There is something so compelling about a GSTL style team league which makes me a huge fan of the model. The drama and anticipation connected with these matches is a great spectator sport and I believe that if SC2 wants to make the jump to the next level (broadcast television), this is the most likely form to translate across. I hope that team houses, team leagues, and strong team unity is the future of SC2 everywhere, though especially in the foreign scene where it is for now lacking.
Never Forget.
Daniel C
Profile Joined October 2010
Hong Kong1606 Posts
April 10 2012 00:36 GMT
#10
Interesting, well written post.

Poster above: in F1, its not 1v1, right?
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
CaptainAmerica
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States89 Posts
April 10 2012 00:39 GMT
#11
Good post, some nice points, and I agree with a lot of it, but not all of it. Teams form a large, integral part of StarCraft 2. When eSports leagues replace the current oldSports leagues at the top, they won't look exactly like any of the oSports leagues. We'll have something new and glorious to behold. Something even I can't foresee.

The future of Pro-SC2 is Pro-SC2.
Give Credit Where It's Due
DoomDragoon
Profile Joined January 2011
United States38 Posts
April 10 2012 00:44 GMT
#12
I for one do enjoy cheering for certain teams (and against other ones). For example, I always cheer for Liquid players, regardless of what race/nationality they are for the simple fact that they are on Team Liquid. I am sure there are other people that cheer for certain teams as well, and therefore, the team should be a part of SC2. In fact, team leagues may be the innovation that StarCraft brings to the sports world.
CPTBadAss
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States594 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 00:49:08
April 10 2012 00:48 GMT
#13
I really like this write-up, you make some good points. However, I disagree about the Huk argument. People definitely cared when he went from Liquid to EG.

I'm also not sure if I'm the norm or not but I always root for Liquid and Mouz players.
I'll keep on struggling, 'cause that's the measure of a man | "That was the plan: To give him some hope, and then crush him" -Stephano
SkimGuy
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada709 Posts
April 10 2012 00:50 GMT
#14
Agree with most parts except for the team one. As a previous poster said, although you cheer for the individual player, teams also play a huge part in preparation and improving at the game (just look at the emotion of each player and each coach in the SPL playoffs/finals when their teammates were winning/losing). Just because some teams in SC2 aren't fully utilizing the "team" system to get better at SC2 doesn't mean teams are not important to Starcraft.
lightsentry
Profile Joined May 2011
413 Posts
April 10 2012 00:50 GMT
#15
doesn't tennis have davis cup that works similarly to team leagues? I mean yes that's different but there are differences in tennis and sc2 because in sc you need practice partners you can trust with builds and stuff so being completely individual doesn't work as well as in tennis (while yes tennis needs hitting partners and coaches, knowing how someone hits the ball is different than knowing a person's build order).
jeeneeus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1168 Posts
April 10 2012 00:51 GMT
#16
I think people did care quite a bit when Huk went to EG and MC went to SK. Not enough to make people hate them, but people still mention it all the time. Also people love the team leagues. They just have a quality to them that's completely different from individual leagues.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
April 10 2012 00:52 GMT
#17
Agreed 100%. I compare SC to sports like this all the time, and i think its the only sensible thing to aim for.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
SecondHand
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States329 Posts
April 10 2012 00:58 GMT
#18
Im an avid tennis fan, and I agree with you
Ladder more, win less
SecondHand
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States329 Posts
April 10 2012 00:58 GMT
#19
BTW go roddick
Ladder more, win less
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6231 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 00:59:12
April 10 2012 00:58 GMT
#20
I have long thought SC2 should use a ranking system similar to that used in tennis. The yearly rollover gives much more consistent seeds and avoids the problem of one guy lucking his way to a finals and getting a high seed while better players are mashed together in early rounds because of one bad day.

I think you're wrong about the teamplay aspect. Training in tennis is fundamentally different, and is far more individual. It occurs mostly between a player, his coach and an otherwise empty court. Starcraft 2's does not, and surrounding great players with a variety of supporting partners is invaluable. Practice partners are not a minor issue that can be waved away by saying "players need them, sure, but..."
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
11:00
Mondays #51
WardiTV257
Harstem229
OGKoka 196
CranKy Ducklings105
Rex98
LiquipediaDiscussion
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro16 Group C
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Afreeca ASL 15790
sctven
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 229
OGKoka 186
Lowko164
Rex 99
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 11264
Bisu 5617
Rain 5281
Flash 3211
Sea 2111
BeSt 1564
EffOrt 770
actioN 640
Hyun 453
Stork 346
[ Show more ]
Zeus 296
ZerO 190
firebathero 189
Hyuk 188
ggaemo 151
Soulkey 146
Pusan 131
Mong 102
Rush 91
Mind 90
Liquid`Ret 85
JYJ74
Barracks 58
PianO 54
Aegong 46
Movie 37
yabsab 29
Terrorterran 22
Sea.KH 22
Icarus 22
SilentControl 16
sSak 15
Noble 14
soO 11
Bale 10
Hm[arnc] 8
Sacsri 8
zelot 5
Dota 2
singsing2485
Dendi537
BananaSlamJamma279
Fuzer 164
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1538
x6flipin608
shoxiejesuss455
byalli170
Super Smash Bros
Westballz8
Other Games
B2W.Neo535
crisheroes326
XaKoH 171
NeuroSwarm44
Mew2King43
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 340
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 48
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota239
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
4h 9m
OSC
12h 9m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
22h 9m
Afreeca Starleague
22h 9m
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
PiGosaur Monday
1d 12h
LiuLi Cup
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
5 days
BSL Team Wars
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Online Event
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Team Wars
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.