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On March 25 2012 15:15 aksfjh wrote:
This is probably the most overblown "glitch" thread I have ever seen. It has as much ramifications as, if not fewer than, stacking workers on close minerals or larva spawning opposite of mineral patches.
In ZvZ stacking workers on close minerals or larva spawning on opposite of mineral patches has a significant effect. If you have your workers travelling farther to start mining, you have to play defensive based on where you spawn in ZvZ at the highest level. If you don't stack workers at the beginning, you can delay all of your timings by a few seconds here and there, making ling baneling timing attacks all that stronger against you. If you don't believe me, Stephano has talked about this on his stream before, and it does make a difference.
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On March 25 2012 18:04 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 16:52 Galvanox wrote:
Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game. this couldn't be made unintentional, they could have also moved the larva animation to the last seconds of the injection period, to add the larva count as the timer finishes. So the larva count for the respawn and the larva count of useable larva is always the same. But they decided that the larva is there but not usable for the duration of the animation. (by no means does someone count the same thing two times unintentionally). For the game flow the way they have done it is probably the best and least random. I wonder if people complaining about this also leave every game if they spawn on a position with the minerals being north, while the opponent has them south. Horrible for ZvZ, I wonder if in zvz anyone spawning north ever won on xel naga caverns, where the natural is the same as the main. Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units. Something like this is part of the game, just like having different maps, where a spawn position might put you in a suboptimal position. Otherwise there would be only one race and one map.
Obviously intentional, just like how you could once avoid drone damage and only drone damage completely with proper control, right? Right?
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On March 25 2012 18:04 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 16:52 Galvanox wrote:
Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game. this couldn't be made unintentional, they could have also moved the larva animation to the last seconds of the injection period, to add the larva count as the timer finishes. So the larva count for the respawn and the larva count of useable larva is always the same. But they decided that the larva is there but not usable for the duration of the animation. (by no means does someone count the same thing two times unintentionally). For the game flow the way they have done it is probably the best and least random. I wonder if people complaining about this also leave every game if they spawn on a position with the minerals being north, while the opponent has them south. Horrible for ZvZ, I wonder if in zvz anyone spawning north ever won on xel naga caverns, where the natural is the same as the main. Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units. Something like this is part of the game, just like having different maps, where a spawn position might put you in a suboptimal position. Otherwise there would be only one race and one map.
how much experience do you have with programming?
by your reasoning I would say none.
it is very easy to do things unintentionally, they are called bugs, have you heard of them?
besides, you seem to be arguing against yourself:
"Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units."
the rule "if spawn larvae goes off cooldown just as a natural larvae is to be spawned, then the natural larvae will not spawn"
seems like a very special and non-intuitive rule, thus, as you say, blizzard should not have intended to implement it.
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Very good OP. Thank you very much and I am, along with a lot of other people it seems, impressed someone actually spotted this.
I'm looking forward to see if Blizzard has anything to say about this.
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People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced.
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On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced.
It's not true, because it doesn't happen often.
But when it happens, especially early game zvz with 2 equal level zergs, 1 player is 1 drone behind without making any mistake. And in such a coin flip matchup that can mean a lot.
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Very nice find. Now Blizzard just needs to know 
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On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced.
it is literally impossible to balance something around a random factor, which this is.
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On March 25 2012 19:12 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced. it is literally impossible to balance something around a random factor, which this is.
Have you heard about the thing called lottery? Expected value
From what I understand; The bug is that the spawn timer is reset without any larvae spawning. Shouldn't be hard to fix.But is it necessary? Don't think so.
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On March 25 2012 19:34 Prillan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 19:12 Roblin wrote:On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced. it is literally impossible to balance something around a random factor, which this is. Have you heard about the thing called lottery? Expected valueFrom what I understand; The bug is that the spawn timer is reset without any larvae spawning. Shouldn't be hard to fix.But is it necessary? Don't think so.
I have never heard of a proffessional lottery player. tell me if you know of one.
I have heard of proffessional poker players, but in that game the random factor is the same for everyone and is accepted byall players.
SC2 is not a gambling game, it is not a game of risk, it is a game of strategy, and in strategic games you need to have predictable results.
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On March 25 2012 19:42 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 19:34 Prillan wrote:On March 25 2012 19:12 Roblin wrote:On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced. it is literally impossible to balance something around a random factor, which this is. Have you heard about the thing called lottery? Expected valueFrom what I understand; The bug is that the spawn timer is reset without any larvae spawning. Shouldn't be hard to fix.But is it necessary? Don't think so. I have never heard of a proffessional lottery player. tell me if you know of one. I have heard of proffessional poker players, but in that game the random factor is the same for everyone and is accepted byall players. SC2 is not a gambling game, it is not a game of risk, it is a game of strategy, and in strategic games you need to have predictable results.
Yeah, sorry. I was only pointing out that it is possible to work with randomness.
The game should in no way be random. (They need to fix the SCV building walk!) But this isn't really that random. You can predict it from in-game information. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fixed
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I share the sentiment of goodpoltergeist.
well written
detailed
informative
and I think they should fix this regardless of balance ramifications.
Great find op.
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1665 Posts
Hi, this is OP here.
OMG. Never expected this many replies as this was my first post on TL. So far, there are about 100 feedbacks here. Though I cannot respond individually to all, thank every one of you for taking your time to read and reply! It is sad and mind-boggling to find several people post obviously without reading the content, but if you read it all and still have questions, it’s my fault for not making things clear enough. So, any counter argument is welcome.
Let me pick up some of the interesting feedbacks to respond.
2 great summarizations of the topic
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 12:01 lpunatic wrote:And a ton of people havent read the OP Scenario 1: larva pops before spawn larva animation, no problem Scenario 2: larva would pop after spawn larva animation, pops as soon as excess larva is spent, no problem Scenario 3: larva that should pop during spawn larva animation doesn't pop, not even when excess larva is spent. Bug. Edit: scenario 3 only applies to the single larva that should have spawned when the excess larva was spent.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 14:25 Jonoman92 wrote:
It took me a really long time to figure out what the OP was saying. I think an easier way of explaining it might be:
1. hatchery larvae generation is on a time counter
2. when the hatchery has 3 or more larvae this timer is paused
3. for some odd reason if the spawn larvae pops at the same time as the larvae generation then the timer is reset, when it should actually pop the larvae as soon and there are fewer than 3 larvae remaining, hence robbing the z player of a larvae they should have
Post at Official Bug Report with good editing
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4253897379
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 12:34 SDream wrote:I lost 1h (in-game time) to try to confirm everything the OP said. But I did confirm everything, even the bug. So, I will post this on official forums soon if you don't do it yourself pretty soon. Edit: Posted here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4253897379If you want to clarify anything in the battle.net forums, you can and should post there, PM me here on teamliquid if you want me to edit anything I wrote there. Thanks again for your finding.
Reading all replies, I found 2 different groups as to how Blizzard should approach this problem. This pretty much summarizes argument that is going on in this thread.
Group A
Blizzard needs to patch this and fix it because this is a bug.
I am on this side, and so seems 90% or more of the community.
Group B
Blizzard shouldn’t patch this because this adds more depth into the game.
Although Group B is minority and I disagree with their opinion, they have a point, too.
2 notable people in Group B
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 09:23 Baum wrote:
So if I understand this correctly you should be able negate this from happening by lining up your injects correctly so this shouldn't be a problem but actually separates the good from the very best players. If this is true it should absolutely stay in the game. It's the same for managing your mules. On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 18:04 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 16:52 Galvanox wrote:
Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game. this couldn't be made unintentional, they could have also moved the larva animation to the last seconds of the injection period, to add the larva count as the timer finishes. So the larva count for the respawn and the larva count of useable larva is always the same. But they decided that the larva is there but not usable for the duration of the animation. (by no means does someone count the same thing two times unintentionally). For the game flow the way they have done it is probably the best and least random. I wonder if people complaining about this also leave every game if they spawn on a position with the minerals being north, while the opponent has them south. Horrible for ZvZ, I wonder if in zvz anyone spawning north ever won on xel naga caverns, where the natural is the same as the main. Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units. Something like this is part of the game, just like having different maps, where a spawn position might put you in a suboptimal position. Otherwise there would be only one race and one map.
I need to commend these 2 for being honest and taking all the disagreement comments from the rest of the community. The MULE argument from Baum was something I had never thought of.
There are so many attacks from Group A against B. While attacking one’s logic is great for the argument’s sake, some seem to attack one’s personality and I want to keep that to minimum.
Some of the good posts from Group A against Group B.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 15:01 poeticEnnui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand this line of argumentation. You equate this inconsistency with the MULE mining inconsistency, but the MULE is grounded in a clear and present mechanic, that is, lasting for exactly 90 seconds. No matter what you do, the MULE will without fail last for this amount of time regardless of what it's carrying. All other limitations are derivatives of this time-constraint -- the MULE death condition isn't "270 minerals returned" (even though I think it should be -- but that's irrelevant to the argument at hand). This bug, on the other hand, is not at all clear nor present. We could argue the empirical truth of this just based on the fact that it took an incredibly observant player two years to figure it out, but even still, it totally contradicts the two clear and present mechanics of the Zerg production cycle, that is: 1) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will spawn a larvae every 15 seconds until it reaches a maximum of 3; 2) a Hatchery will spawn 4 larvae 45 seconds after a Queen inject. If you want to argue that there's a third condition that's as clear and present as the first two -- 3) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will not spawn a larvae in accordance with the cycle described in mechanic 1 if and only if it coincides with the larvae spawn of an inject -- well, lol. Nowhere is that mechanic limited to a definite constraint as with the MULE's 90 second lifetime; you'd have a pretty hard time arguing for it. As to the onus of mitigating the inconsistency being on the player...well, OK. There are a million ways to make the game arbitrarily harder. You could add the condition "if you Chronoboost a probe when it's exactly 3.5 seconds done, the probe explodes when it finishes" to the game because it adds "depth" (which it does) and requires "skill" (which it also does) to mitigate. Hell, this inconsistency is even harder to deal with than that simply because there's no way to determine where the natural larva cycle is. If you're managing 2+ hatcheries, do you honestly think that any human player would be able to micromanage when each falls below three larvae AND time each individual inject accordingly? What about when hatcheries are grouped together? Micromanagement of the larvae isn't even possible at that point, no matter how good you are. tl; dr: it's not clear at all that this should be an intended mechanic, and there are infinite ways to make the game "require more skill"
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 15:28 Roblin wrote:
some quick math:
in effect, the times when a larvae dissappear the inject larvae mechanic produces not 4, but 3 larvae, the time frame for this to happen is 1.5 seconds out of 15 seconds, aka 10% of the time.
best case: no larvae is lost, 1 hatchery produces (on average) 66.66667 larvae per 400 seconds (6 minutes 40 seconds)
(100% larvae production, 0% lost)
worst case: 1 larvae per inject is lost, 1 hatchery produces 57.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(85% larvae production, 15% lost)
average case: 1 in 10 larvae is lost per inject, 1 hatchery produces 65.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(98.5% larvae production, 1.5% lost)
the thing people is complaining about here is clearly not the fact that a tiny amount of larvae is lost on average, its that a very significant amount of larvae is lost in the worst case.
I would say that 15% of you larvae is enough to decide the outcome of a game, but most importantly, this is a random factor.
there is no way to control whether the bug occurs or not except staring at your hatchery at all times of the game.
obviously, staring at your hatchery and expecting to win is simply not feasible, and thus, this is in fact, a random factor and random factors are discouraged and should be patched out.
yes, I have done the math, I know that for 3 bases to have continuous worst case scenario in 3 consecutive minutes that is the following chance:
1 / 1.000.000.000
do note that losing 15% of larvae for 3 minutes is probably an autoloss though.
for shits and giggles: 3 bases for 9 minutes: 1 / 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000
but all that is necessary to lose a game is 1 or 2 lost larvae at a critical time, and that is just 1/ 10 and 1 / 100 respectively.
One person in Group B not for depth in game but, interestingly, for game balance reason.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced.
Balance Concern
If patch hits, ZvP and ZvT balance would shift in favor of Z ever so slightly by something like 0.0000001% or so. With current trend in favor of macro play, number of games where this glitch matters is very small in the first place. I would say this glitch could matter vs 2 rax and 4 gate because these happen around the time your first inject finishes and having extra 2 lings does make a difference in such a short micro oriented game.
Zerg winrate in ZvZ is apparently 100%, but patch would matter more in ZvZ than the other 2. ZvZ battle happen earlier and first inject finish just in time for 14gas14pool ling speed upgrade research is done. I’m sure many of you have done or being done 15 drones no-more-drones mass ling attack right when speed finishes at least once in your career. In this scenario, you usually have 20 “or so” lings running at enemy base. I haven’t done enough research on this one, but I’m sure having 2 more or less lings would matter a lot in this case. Therefore, the patch would favor actual good player and less about luck in ZvZ.
If people think I need to add these into original post, I might do it later on. Tell me what you think.
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Great find!
Also, for those saying "Blizzard balanced around this bugged mechanic", remember that a significant portion of Blizzard's balancing is done in spreadsheets and theory, as well as in testing.
I imagine what probably happens is that they make spreadsheets saying
- by X time, zerg has 3 + (15X) + (4 * Y) = Z larvae
- therefore they have however many larvae to hold this particular timing attack, which should be enough
Then they probably play some test games with their imperfect mechanics, and think "close enough, it probably just comes down to micro". But they probably haven't even noticed that in 1 in 6 games, Zerg is down a larva and maybe that's why they're winning or losing - to RNG, not because of skill.
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I remember when I did 7 roach rush a long time ago and spammed that strategy a lot, trying to stay as close to the same build order and timing as I could.
Sometimes I ended up with only 6 roaches and I was so confused about what I did differently compared to previous games.
Could this explain that?
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Pretty nice find. It's a very niche scenario, since you have to time the queen inject perfectly for this bug to happen, but it's clearly a bug nontheless. I hope it gets fixed in the next patch!
Also, maybe you should edit those 3 points into your OP to make the whole topic clear, your in depth analysis is a good explanation of the bug but making the point more clear will probably maintain the thread more civil.
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On March 25 2012 20:45 Orek wrote:Hi, this is OP here. OMG. Never expected this many replies as this was my first post on TL. So far, there are about 100 feedbacks here. Though I cannot respond individually to all, thank every one of you for taking your time to read and reply! It is sad and mind-boggling to find several people post obviously without reading the content, but if you read it all and still have questions, it’s my fault for not making things clear enough. So, any counter argument is welcome. Let me pick up some of the interesting feedbacks to respond. 2 great summarizations of the topic+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 12:01 lpunatic wrote:And a ton of people havent read the OP Scenario 1: larva pops before spawn larva animation, no problem Scenario 2: larva would pop after spawn larva animation, pops as soon as excess larva is spent, no problem Scenario 3: larva that should pop during spawn larva animation doesn't pop, not even when excess larva is spent. Bug. Edit: scenario 3 only applies to the single larva that should have spawned when the excess larva was spent. On March 25 2012 14:25 Jonoman92 wrote:
It took me a really long time to figure out what the OP was saying. I think an easier way of explaining it might be:
1. hatchery larvae generation is on a time counter
2. when the hatchery has 3 or more larvae this timer is paused
3. for some odd reason if the spawn larvae pops at the same time as the larvae generation then the timer is reset, when it should actually pop the larvae as soon and there are fewer than 3 larvae remaining, hence robbing the z player of a larvae they should have
On March 25 2012 12:34 SDream wrote:I lost 1h (in-game time) to try to confirm everything the OP said. But I did confirm everything, even the bug. So, I will post this on official forums soon if you don't do it yourself pretty soon. Edit: Posted here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4253897379If you want to clarify anything in the battle.net forums, you can and should post there, PM me here on teamliquid if you want me to edit anything I wrote there. Thanks again for your finding. Reading all replies, I found 2 different groups as to how Blizzard should approach this problem. This pretty much summarizes argument that is going on in this thread. Group ABlizzard needs to patch this and fix it because this is a bug. I am on this side, and so seems 90% or more of the community. Group BBlizzard shouldn’t patch this because this adds more depth into the game. Although Group B is minority and I disagree with their opinion, they have a point, too. 2 notable people in Group B + Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 09:23 Baum wrote:
So if I understand this correctly you should be able negate this from happening by lining up your injects correctly so this shouldn't be a problem but actually separates the good from the very best players. If this is true it should absolutely stay in the game. It's the same for managing your mules. On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. On March 25 2012 18:04 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 16:52 Galvanox wrote:
Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game. this couldn't be made unintentional, they could have also moved the larva animation to the last seconds of the injection period, to add the larva count as the timer finishes. So the larva count for the respawn and the larva count of useable larva is always the same. But they decided that the larva is there but not usable for the duration of the animation. (by no means does someone count the same thing two times unintentionally). For the game flow the way they have done it is probably the best and least random. I wonder if people complaining about this also leave every game if they spawn on a position with the minerals being north, while the opponent has them south. Horrible for ZvZ, I wonder if in zvz anyone spawning north ever won on xel naga caverns, where the natural is the same as the main. Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units. Something like this is part of the game, just like having different maps, where a spawn position might put you in a suboptimal position. Otherwise there would be only one race and one map. I need to commend these 2 for being honest and taking all the disagreement comments from the rest of the community. The MULE argument from Baum was something I had never thought of. There are so many attacks from Group A against B. While attacking one’s logic is great for the argument’s sake, some seem to attack one’s personality and I want to keep that to minimum. Some of the good posts from Group A against Group B. + Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 15:01 poeticEnnui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand this line of argumentation. You equate this inconsistency with the MULE mining inconsistency, but the MULE is grounded in a clear and present mechanic, that is, lasting for exactly 90 seconds. No matter what you do, the MULE will without fail last for this amount of time regardless of what it's carrying. All other limitations are derivatives of this time-constraint -- the MULE death condition isn't "270 minerals returned" (even though I think it should be -- but that's irrelevant to the argument at hand). This bug, on the other hand, is not at all clear nor present. We could argue the empirical truth of this just based on the fact that it took an incredibly observant player two years to figure it out, but even still, it totally contradicts the two clear and present mechanics of the Zerg production cycle, that is: 1) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will spawn a larvae every 15 seconds until it reaches a maximum of 3; 2) a Hatchery will spawn 4 larvae 45 seconds after a Queen inject. If you want to argue that there's a third condition that's as clear and present as the first two -- 3) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will not spawn a larvae in accordance with the cycle described in mechanic 1 if and only if it coincides with the larvae spawn of an inject -- well, lol. Nowhere is that mechanic limited to a definite constraint as with the MULE's 90 second lifetime; you'd have a pretty hard time arguing for it. As to the onus of mitigating the inconsistency being on the player...well, OK. There are a million ways to make the game arbitrarily harder. You could add the condition "if you Chronoboost a probe when it's exactly 3.5 seconds done, the probe explodes when it finishes" to the game because it adds "depth" (which it does) and requires "skill" (which it also does) to mitigate. Hell, this inconsistency is even harder to deal with than that simply because there's no way to determine where the natural larva cycle is. If you're managing 2+ hatcheries, do you honestly think that any human player would be able to micromanage when each falls below three larvae AND time each individual inject accordingly? What about when hatcheries are grouped together? Micromanagement of the larvae isn't even possible at that point, no matter how good you are. tl; dr: it's not clear at all that this should be an intended mechanic, and there are infinite ways to make the game "require more skill" On March 25 2012 15:28 Roblin wrote:
some quick math:
in effect, the times when a larvae dissappear the inject larvae mechanic produces not 4, but 3 larvae, the time frame for this to happen is 1.5 seconds out of 15 seconds, aka 10% of the time.
best case: no larvae is lost, 1 hatchery produces (on average) 66.66667 larvae per 400 seconds (6 minutes 40 seconds)
(100% larvae production, 0% lost)
worst case: 1 larvae per inject is lost, 1 hatchery produces 57.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(85% larvae production, 15% lost)
average case: 1 in 10 larvae is lost per inject, 1 hatchery produces 65.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(98.5% larvae production, 1.5% lost)
the thing people is complaining about here is clearly not the fact that a tiny amount of larvae is lost on average, its that a very significant amount of larvae is lost in the worst case.
I would say that 15% of you larvae is enough to decide the outcome of a game, but most importantly, this is a random factor.
there is no way to control whether the bug occurs or not except staring at your hatchery at all times of the game.
obviously, staring at your hatchery and expecting to win is simply not feasible, and thus, this is in fact, a random factor and random factors are discouraged and should be patched out.
yes, I have done the math, I know that for 3 bases to have continuous worst case scenario in 3 consecutive minutes that is the following chance:
1 / 1.000.000.000
do note that losing 15% of larvae for 3 minutes is probably an autoloss though.
for shits and giggles: 3 bases for 9 minutes: 1 / 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000
but all that is necessary to lose a game is 1 or 2 lost larvae at a critical time, and that is just 1/ 10 and 1 / 100 respectively. One person in Group B not for depth in game but, interestingly, for game balance reason. + Show Spoiler +On March 25 2012 18:46 Uncultured wrote:
People don't seem to realize the game has been balanced around this very glitch. And that fixing it could possibly (If it has as much effect as some are saying it does) cause things to become more unbalanced. If patch hits, ZvP and ZvT balance would shift in favor of Z ever so slightly by something like 0.0000001% or so. With current trend in favor of macro play, number of games where this glitch matters is very small in the first place. I would say this glitch could matter vs 2 rax and 4 gate because these happen around the time your first inject finishes and having extra 2 lings does make a difference in such a short micro oriented game. Zerg winrate in ZvZ is apparently 100%, but patch would matter more in ZvZ than the other 2. ZvZ battle happen earlier and first inject finish just in time for 14gas14pool ling speed upgrade research is done. I’m sure many of you have done or being done 15 drones no-more-drones mass ling attack right when speed finishes at least once in your career. In this scenario, you usually have 20 “or so” lings running at enemy base. I haven’t done enough research on this one, but I’m sure having 2 more or less lings would matter a lot in this case. Therefore, the patch would favor actual good player and less about luck in ZvZ. If people think I need to add these into original post, I might do it later on. Tell me what you think.
*claps*
this, people, is how to deal with an arguement. you win the internet.
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I do not have too much to say about this other than it might be hlpeful against proxy gate/rax...brilliant post and follow up by OP Orek ..gg
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This might already have been mentioned, but I see some people trying to downplay the importance of this bug saying it is only a 10% chance to happen and that means 1 larva every 6 minutes which is not a big deal, that is not really how something works. If you have a 1% chance explode all your scvs explode every per game minutes, that is not many scvs lost per game, but when it happens it can mean a lot (obviously a slightly more extreme example.) If this happens to a few of your first injects, then this can easily mess up your early game.
I guess a good thing is that inject larva cooldown does not line up with the larva spawn, where you could risk to have it happen on every larva spawn you do if you line it up perfectly. Should still be fixed though.
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Hard work must have been put onto this to notice it. Blizzard should patch this ASAP
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EPT
