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On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this.
I don't understand this line of argumentation. You equate this inconsistency with the MULE mining inconsistency, but the MULE is grounded in a clear and present mechanic, that is, lasting for exactly 90 seconds. No matter what you do, the MULE will without fail last for this amount of time regardless of what it's carrying. All other limitations are derivatives of this time-constraint -- the MULE death condition isn't "270 minerals returned" (even though I think it should be -- but that's irrelevant to the argument at hand).
This bug, on the other hand, is not at all clear nor present. We could argue the empirical truth of this just based on the fact that it took an incredibly observant player two years to figure it out, but even still, it totally contradicts the two clear and present mechanics of the Zerg production cycle, that is:
1) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will spawn a larvae every 15 seconds until it reaches a maximum of 3;
2) a Hatchery will spawn 4 larvae 45 seconds after a Queen inject.
If you want to argue that there's a third condition that's as clear and present as the first two --
3) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will not spawn a larvae in accordance with the cycle described in mechanic 1 if and only if it coincides with the larvae spawn of an inject
-- well, lol. Nowhere is that mechanic limited to a definite constraint as with the MULE's 90 second lifetime; you'd have a pretty hard time arguing for it.
As to the onus of mitigating the inconsistency being on the player...well, OK. There are a million ways to make the game arbitrarily harder. You could add the condition "if you Chronoboost a probe when it's exactly 3.5 seconds done, the probe explodes when it finishes" to the game because it adds "depth" (which it does) and requires "skill" (which it also does) to mitigate.
Hell, this inconsistency is even harder to deal with than that simply because there's no way to determine where the natural larva cycle is. If you're managing 2+ hatcheries, do you honestly think that any human player would be able to micromanage when each falls below three larvae AND time each individual inject accordingly? What about when hatcheries are grouped together? Micromanagement of the larvae isn't even possible at that point, no matter how good you are.
tl; dr: it's not clear at all that this should be an intended mechanic, and there are infinite ways to make the game "require more skill"
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On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in.
If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it.
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On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this.
When larva injects become stackable like how MULEs don't have a cooldown, then I'll glady let this glitch remain in the game.
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I've always wondered the purpose in responding to those who obviously have not read the OP, as if they will read your response...
Good analysis and write up, OP, definitely a bug.
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This is probably the most overblown "glitch" thread I have ever seen. It has as much ramifications as, if not fewer than, stacking workers on close minerals or larva spawning opposite of mineral patches.
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On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it.
bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning
why would anyone WANT to do that ?
while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game
just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD
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i like how most people haven't read the OP
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On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD
Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional.
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some quick math:
in effect, the times when a larvae dissappear the inject larvae mechanic produces not 4, but 3 larvae, the time frame for this to happen is 1.5 seconds out of 15 seconds, aka 10% of the time.
best case: no larvae is lost, 1 hatchery produces (on average) 66.66667 larvae per 400 seconds (6 minutes 40 seconds)
(100% larvae production, 0% lost)
worst case: 1 larvae per inject is lost, 1 hatchery produces 57.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(85% larvae production, 15% lost)
average case: 1 in 10 larvae is lost per inject, 1 hatchery produces 65.66667 larvae per 400 seconds
(98.5% larvae production, 1.5% lost)
the thing people is complaining about here is clearly not the fact that a tiny amount of larvae is lost on average, its that a very significant amount of larvae is lost in the worst case.
I would say that 15% of you larvae is enough to decide the outcome of a game, but most importantly, this is a random factor.
there is no way to control whether the bug occurs or not except staring at your hatchery at all times of the game.
obviously, staring at your hatchery and expecting to win is simply not feasible, and thus, this is in fact, a random factor and random factors are discouraged and should be patched out.
yes, I have done the math, I know that for 3 bases to have continuous worst case scenario in 3 consecutive minutes that is the following chance:
1 / 1.000.000.000
do note that losing 15% of larvae for 3 minutes is probably an autoloss though.
for shits and giggles: 3 bases for 9 minutes: 1 / 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000
but all that is necessary to lose a game is 1 or 2 lost larvae at a critical time, and that is just 1/ 10 and 1 / 100 respectively.
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On March 25 2012 15:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional.
Anyone that is making stupid posts about mules being stackable and injects being not is even more delusional. I made an argument for keeping this because it let's a player maximize their larva by exceptional larva management while it has no impact at all for low level players. So far there hasn't been one single post that convinced me that this is a bad idea. Most Zergs aren't even injecting in time anyway. But hey if most people dislike this I don't care if it gets removed.
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This is also extremely easy to recreate.
The inject timings when you have 3 larvae waiting are:
Drone at 25/40 completion of inject - normal larvae appears right before inject larvae completes.
Drone at 26/40 or 27/40 completion of inject - normal larvae appears 15 seconds after inject larvae completes.
Drone at 28/40 completion of inject - normal larvae appears right after inject larvae completes.
It's that simple.
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On March 25 2012 15:35 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional. Anyone that is making stupid posts about mules being stackable and injects being not is even more delusional. I made an argument for keeping this because it let's a player maximize their larva by exceptional larva management while it has no impact at all for low level players. So far there hasn't been one single post that convinced me that this is a bad idea. Most Zergs aren't even injecting in time anyway. But hey if most people dislike this I don't care if it gets removed.
is this the post you were looking for?
On March 25 2012 15:01 poeticEnnui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand this line of argumentation. You equate this inconsistency with the MULE mining inconsistency, but the MULE is grounded in a clear and present mechanic, that is, lasting for exactly 90 seconds. No matter what you do, the MULE will without fail last for this amount of time regardless of what it's carrying. All other limitations are derivatives of this time-constraint -- the MULE death condition isn't "270 minerals returned" (even though I think it should be -- but that's irrelevant to the argument at hand). This bug, on the other hand, is not at all clear nor present. We could argue the empirical truth of this just based on the fact that it took an incredibly observant player two years to figure it out, but even still, it totally contradicts the two clear and present mechanics of the Zerg production cycle, that is: 1) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will spawn a larvae every 15 seconds until it reaches a maximum of 3; 2) a Hatchery will spawn 4 larvae 45 seconds after a Queen inject. If you want to argue that there's a third condition that's as clear and present as the first two -- 3) a Hatchery with < 3 larvae will not spawn a larvae in accordance with the cycle described in mechanic 1 if and only if it coincides with the larvae spawn of an inject -- well, lol. Nowhere is that mechanic limited to a definite constraint as with the MULE's 90 second lifetime; you'd have a pretty hard time arguing for it. As to the onus of mitigating the inconsistency being on the player...well, OK. There are a million ways to make the game arbitrarily harder. You could add the condition "if you Chronoboost a probe when it's exactly 3.5 seconds done, the probe explodes when it finishes" to the game because it adds "depth" (which it does) and requires "skill" (which it also does) to mitigate. Hell, this inconsistency is even harder to deal with than that simply because there's no way to determine where the natural larva cycle is. If you're managing 2+ hatcheries, do you honestly think that any human player would be able to micromanage when each falls below three larvae AND time each individual inject accordingly? What about when hatcheries are grouped together? Micromanagement of the larvae isn't even possible at that point, no matter how good you are. tl; dr: it's not clear at all that this should be an intended mechanic, and there are infinite ways to make the game "require more skill"
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On March 25 2012 15:35 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional. Anyone that is making stupid posts about mules being stackable and injects being not is even more delusional. I made an argument for keeping this because it let's a player maximize their larva by exceptional larva management while it has no impact at all for low level players. So far there hasn't been one single post that convinced me that this is a bad idea. Most Zergs aren't even injecting in time anyway.
It was obviously just a joke. I don't think that injects should be stackable. I was saying how you saying that since MULEs can lose minerals on trips back on the last second as an "argument" to why this glitch should stay is completely irrevalent. No zerg can watch all the hatcheries and make sure they're not injecting on that 15th second. However, for the MULE, you just drop the MULE on a far patch and you're completely fine. There's not even an indicator on when a larva will spawn. This "larva management" is impossible for any player to keep track of over the course of the game. There hasn't been a single post to convince me why this is a good idea to keep either.
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On March 25 2012 15:35 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional. Anyone that is making stupid posts about mules being stackable and injects being not is even more delusional. I made an argument for keeping this because it let's a player maximize their larva by exceptional larva management while it has no impact at all for low level players. So far there hasn't been one single post that convinced me that this is a bad idea. Most Zergs aren't even injecting in time anyway. But hey if most people dislike this I don't care if it gets removed.
Ok, let's introduce a mechanic where unit production out of your building is halted for 15 seconds if you queue them up at a certain time interval. Because that exemplifies player skill and truly separates the pros and the casuals. Fair, right?
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On March 25 2012 15:35 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 15:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On March 25 2012 15:18 Slipspace wrote:On March 25 2012 15:06 Baum wrote:On March 25 2012 14:22 nakedsurfer wrote:On March 25 2012 12:03 VictorJones wrote:
If you wait like 1.6 seconds after your larva pop before injecting again, you get slightly higher larva output. This isn't a problem. It separates the great zergs from the slightly greater zergs
EDIT: Yeah okay, it's been said. I suppose they should change the hatchery animation for the sake of consistency if it really matters.. lol Actually, If you're going to make players wait a few seconds before every inject then it doesn't sound like you're encouraging better play. An amazing zerg player is one that can keep up with the injects everytime it pops. This glitch, if anything, rewards players who can't keep up with zerg macro because they get the extra larvae and not the better player(the one who is spot on with injects). In my eyes, it'd be harder to keep up perfectly with the injects rather than keeping the glitch and giving the player a 2 second leeway to get around to it since it'd be "better" to do anyway. So even though this glitch isn't balance breaking, this only really hurts the better player since they should be on top of their macro and the lesser player gets rewarded. Again, it should be about perfect spot on play and not oh just take your time to do it since you actually get a bonus for being the slower player EDIT: On March 25 2012 14:10 Baum wrote:
The non-zerg equivalent is Mules mining and waisting 30 minerals when they don't return their last trip. You can avoid that by pulling them away before that just like you can time your inject correctly. As said things like this only make the game deeper and they don't matter at all at the level most of us are playing at. In fact there should be more things like this. I don't understand how people keep relating these topics. They are nothing similar. You're essentially making the zerg player wait 2 seconds per inject. That makes the injects slower on all hatcheries. Which makes all units coming from the larvae injecting come out slower. You're basically saying if you want an extra larva(per hatch) you must be slower at what you do and let your queens build up some energy. If there is 4 hatches and the player is playing perfectly, they will lose 4 larvae. But if they are not playing perfectly, then they can end up with 4 more larvae. The closest you can compare is like every warp-in, you must wait 2 seconds before warping things in again after the cooldown. If you don't, one of your gates won't work for a cycle of warp-in. If you lose four larva you are not playing perfectly. If you want to maximize your larva you wait those two seconds. It's so much easier to tab through your hatcheries and spam spawn larva as soon as you got the energy than to time it perfectly every time. I am just saying this is something that makes the game deeper and it doesn't affect master and below at all so why shouldn't we keep it. bro, delaying every inject by 2 seconds isn't going to help a pro maximize his chance at winning why would anyone WANT to do that ? while this isn't game breaking necessarily, it's definitely a glitch with 0 benefits to keeping it in the game just to reiterate, injecting SLOWER is BAD Pretty much this. Anyone trying to argue that this remaining in the game is a way to separate the pros from the average players is just delusional. Anyone that is making stupid posts about mules being stackable and injects being not is even more delusional. I made an argument for keeping this because it let's a player maximize their larva by exceptional larva management while it has no impact at all for low level players. So far there hasn't been one single post that convinced me that this is a bad idea. Most Zergs aren't even injecting in time anyway. But hey if most people dislike this I don't care if it gets removed.
It's not a matter of figuring out a pattern and following it every game and eluding the bug. In order to prevent this bug from effecting your larva count, you would have to monitor every single inject. You would have to stare at the larva and make sure you don't inject in that narrow window. Every single time. And it's not a simple matter of finding a pattern and injecting according to it. Not only is every game different with numerous strategies and scenarios that could disrupt that pattern, but the method that you create units isn't instant. When you hold down 'D' to make drones, you have to hold it down for a little while to get all the larva. Over time this alone would fuck up any pattern you were following to elude the bug.
As it stands, it's literally just a small chance at having the occasional lost larva that probably won't effect anything but potentionally could over the course of a game. That is, if the odds aren't in your favor. And historically, that makes for bad gameplay.
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This really only effects ZvZ to any degree. Either way it's definitely something that should be patched.
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Crazy find, I can't believe someone actually spotted this. Though not game breaking in any way I believe it should be fixed as it's just based on bad luck of timing. However, for the sake of further discussion, how do we know that the 15 second timer is supposed to pause if an inject interrupts it's count? Is this in fact how it is intended to operate? Why would injecting above 3 larva not reset the timer, which then restarts it's 15 second countdown when under 3? Perhaps this is a bug which in turn causes this other situation to occur at all.
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Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game.
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I really hope this gets fixed in an upcoming patch, or even a hotfix. I do agree with people saying that this has very little effect in a multi-base 30 minutes ++ macrogame, but it absolutely can effect the outcome of any early onebase play. Please post if you get any response from the blizzardforum! 
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On March 25 2012 16:52 Galvanox wrote:
Baum obviously has an IQ in the single digits and hasn't bothered to read any material in the OP or any other comments, This is obviously an unintentional bug in the game.
this couldn't be made unintentional, they could have also moved the larva animation to the last seconds of the injection period, to add the larva count as the timer finishes. So the larva count for the respawn and the larva count of useable larva is always the same.
But they decided that the larva is there but not usable for the duration of the animation. (by no means does someone count the same thing two times unintentionally). For the game flow the way they have done it is probably the best and least random.
I wonder if people complaining about this also leave every game if they spawn on a position with the minerals being north, while the opponent has them south. Horrible for ZvZ, I wonder if in zvz anyone spawning north ever won on xel naga caverns, where the natural is the same as the main.
Blizzard followed a line with the game mechanics and didn't made many exceptions to how certain things run ingame, that helps the gameflow as you don't have to think about the 100 special rules every unit has. Which increases intuitive play, something that is really important for an rts where you have to control many units.
Something like this is part of the game, just like having different maps, where a spawn position might put you in a suboptimal position. Otherwise there would be only one race and one map.
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EPT
