EPT
Seriously though , I can see this being a huge problem when playing ZvZ against 1 base all ins or an even bigger problem when you are the one carrying out the 1base all in .
Larva disappearing Glitch in 1.5 (not about 20th larva) -…
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kurrysauce
272 Posts
Seriously though , I can see this being a huge problem when playing ZvZ against 1 base all ins or an even bigger problem when you are the one carrying out the 1base all in . | ||
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- special tactics -
Ukraine39 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
You seem convinced that the larva "disappearance" you describe is a bug. However, this depends on your assumption that the 15 second larva "countdown" should stall, rather than reset, upon reaching the larva limit. In other words, what if this scenario is the "bug." Case L 5min59sec Hatchery has 0 larva 6min00sec Hatchery generates 1 larva 6min03sec Queen injects 6min15sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 2 larvae 6min30sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 1 larva 6min43sec 4 larvae spawn use 4 larvae 6min49sec Hatchery generates 1 larva = Larva X use 1 larva 7min04sec Hatchery generates 1 larva Total 9 larvae so far I've certainly never heard blizzard state a firm intention on what larva spawning should be. So, perhaps Protoss and Terran players should be complaining about Zerg having an extra larva? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
On March 26 2012 00:11 -_- wrote: Orek: You seem convinced that the larva "disappearance" you describe is a bug. However, this depends on your assumption that the 15 second larva "countdown" should stall, rather than reset, upon reaching the larva limit. In other words, what if this scenario is the "bug." Case L 5min59sec Hatchery has 0 larva 6min00sec Hatchery generates 1 larva 6min03sec Queen injects 6min15sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 2 larvae 6min30sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 1 larva 6min43sec 4 larvae spawn use 4 larvae 6min49sec Hatchery generates 1 larva = Larva X use 1 larva 7min04sec Hatchery generates 1 larva Total 9 larvae so far I've certainly never heard blizzard state a firm intention on what larva spawning should be. So, perhaps Protoss and Terran players should be complaining about Zerg having an extra larva? As long as there is one working design, the developers will balance the game around it. However, how can you balance around a random bug? A bug exists regardless and Blizzard will fix it somehow and then design the balance around it, that's fine. We aren't asking for a buff, nor a nerf, but for consistency. | ||
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
Yeah, on average this won't make a difference. But once in a while it will, and that shouldn't happen. Really interesting bug | ||
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
if [larva count] < 3, start [larva timer] when [larva timer] ends, spawn 1 larva and add 1 to [larva count] if any only if [larva count] < 3 when [queen inject timer] ends, spawn 4 larvae and add 4 to [larva count] What happens is that if the queen inject timer ends before the third larva spawns, the larva count raises to above three, so even if the natural larva timer is in progression, a larva won't spawn. This makes sense: if you've been at two larvae for ten seconds and get 4 larvae from a queen inject spawn, the larva which would have otherwise spawned in five seconds doesn't spawn even if the natural larva timer counts down to zero because you're already at 6 larvae. The problem arises when the injection timer ends at an infinitesmially short time before the natural larva timer ends, e.g. larva count = 2 and larva timer = 0.00...001; queen inject adds 4 to larva count, and the natural larva consequently gets lost. So this is in some regard working as intended: Blizz doesn't want the natural larva timer adding a larva to a hatchery that already has 6 larva. That is to say: as long as there is < 3 larvae and an inject finishes, there will always be a lost larva whose natural timer was counting down, be it at 5 seconds into the timer or 14.99999999999 seconds into the timer. What we perceive as larva "getting lost" is actually the larva count increasing beyond three just before the natural larva timer finishes. What does this mean in terms of "solutions"? Well, a consistency fix could be if [larva timer] has < 1 second left, spawn the goddamned larva anyway but there would still be the issue of arbitrariness between the player who injects the larva at 0.99...9 seconds and the player who injects larva at 1.00...01 seconds in relation to the larva timer, that is, the former losing the larva and the latter having it. The only way to do it which I think is absolutely "fair" is to let each natural larva timer produce a larva, which would break the current mechanic of no larva being able to spawn past 3. I can't say whether this solution is "good" or "bad", but it's the only one that would remove what we perceive as an inconsistency. tl; dr: There is no way to argue that this is a "bug" in the sense that the programmers are somehow at fault for designing a faulty mechanic; rather, the issue is one of consistency and...hate to say it, balance. | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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Moliere
51 Posts
On March 25 2012 20:45 Orek wrote: I lol'd. Well done.Zerg winrate in ZvZ is apparently 100% | ||
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CptCutter
United Kingdom370 Posts
On March 25 2012 07:18 Orek wrote: Thank you for the advice. I just did. I am very well aware of 3+ larvae situation. If you dont mind, please read on. I think I made it clear enough with enough evidence. Thank you. perhaps you should just build another hatchery? this bug you talk of will most likely happen once or twice per game max and will effect the gameplay very little. it is the same kind of 'bug' as mules mining 30 more minerals then dieing without being able to return them. its not game breaking unless the 2 players that are playing are literally perfect players. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On March 26 2012 10:14 CptCutter wrote: Mules' behavior is deterministic though, not random. Depends on the distance between the particular mineral patch and the command center. A player can control this consciously.perhaps you should just build another hatchery? this bug you talk of will most likely happen once or twice per game max and will effect the gameplay very little. it is the same kind of 'bug' as mules mining 30 more minerals then dieing without being able to return them. its not game breaking unless the 2 players that are playing are literally perfect players. Here we have a truly random behavior, based on invisible timer against which you throw a dice each time you inject. It is not within player's control and it could lead to streaks of unlucky or lucky outcomes in a row, completely randomly. | ||
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quistador
United States43 Posts
However, if a pop occurs exactly when regular larva generation would have occrured (6:45), the larva that would have been naturally generated is now skipped, and when you use the larvae from the inject the next larva won't generate for 15 more seconds, resarting generation instead of generating that larva as soon as the inject's larvae are used. | ||
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Anubis390
Germany7 Posts
seriously I think this is kinda intended. | ||
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quistador
United States43 Posts
On March 26 2012 10:56 Anubis390 wrote: It's not a bug, it's a feature! seriously I think this is kinda intended. It's not if you understand what is meant. Read my post. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 25 2012 23:53 kurrysauce wrote: Glad someone found this bug , until blizzard does something about this , I'll just blame all my losses against 1 base all ins on this. Seriously though , I can see this being a huge problem when playing ZvZ against 1 base all ins or an even bigger problem when you are the one carrying out the 1base all in . A huge problem? A 1/50 chance that you'll lose 1 larva is a huge problem? I mean c'mon what allins are you talking about. If it's 1 base roach make spines and your own units and 1 larva won't matter. If it's a baneling allin. Well 1 baneling can kill like 10 larva worth of zerglings. So I highly doubt 1 larva is going to matter. If anything it'd matter more if your trying to macro and you lose 1 larva early when your droning, then overall you'd lose like a few hundred minerals if the game lasted a long time. And that's only if you and your enemy are droning at the same time. Don't get me wrong I agree this needs to be fixed. But a HUGE problem is a HUGE overstatement. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On March 26 2012 00:11 -_- wrote: Orek: You seem convinced that the larva "disappearance" you describe is a bug. However, this depends on your assumption that the 15 second larva "countdown" should stall, rather than reset, upon reaching the larva limit. In other words, what if this scenario is the "bug." Case L 5min59sec Hatchery has 0 larva 6min00sec Hatchery generates 1 larva 6min03sec Queen injects 6min15sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 2 larvae 6min30sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 1 larva 6min43sec 4 larvae spawn use 4 larvae 6min49sec Hatchery generates 1 larva = Larva X use 1 larva 7min04sec Hatchery generates 1 larva Total 9 larvae so far I've certainly never heard blizzard state a firm intention on what larva spawning should be. So, perhaps Protoss and Terran players should be complaining about Zerg having an extra larva? Hi, OP here. Inspired by this feedback, I added another section in original post. EDIT The way Blizzard needs to patch “What? Making Larva X appear as in Table B by reprogramming is the only way to patch this. There is no need to discuss how it should be patched.” I don’t blame you for thinking that way. I had thought so as well until I read the following feedback. + Show Spoiler + On March 26 2012 00:11 -_- wrote: Orek: You seem convinced that the larva "disappearance" you describe is a bug. However, this depends on your assumption that the 15 second larva "countdown" should stall, rather than reset, upon reaching the larva limit. In other words, what if this scenario is the "bug." Case L 5min59sec Hatchery has 0 larva 6min00sec Hatchery generates 1 larva 6min03sec Queen injects 6min15sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 2 larvae 6min30sec Hatchery generates 1 larva use 1 larva 6min43sec 4 larvae spawn use 4 larvae 6min49sec Hatchery generates 1 larva = Larva X use 1 larva 7min04sec Hatchery generates 1 larva Total 9 larvae so far I've certainly never heard blizzard state a firm intention on what larva spawning should be. So, perhaps Protoss and Terran players should be complaining about Zerg having an extra larva? This alternative solution caught my attention. Many might say it’s just a QQ against Zerg, but that last part is not what is interesting about this post. Interesting concept is that when there are 2 rules that contradicts each other and there is a need to fix one of them to have 1 universal rule that applies to all situations, this post suggests that the majority rule is the one that needs to be fixed and minority rule must be applied. Fixing 90% so that 10% rules all sounds so weird. Bill Clinton wins 50% popular vote, Ralph Nader wins 1% popular vote, then now we should have Ralph Nader as our President!!! That’s how it sounds like. However, if fixing the glitch was the sole purpose, this approach works, too. Inspired by this post, I recalculated everything in my me vs computer experiment on scrap station and simulated what WOULD it be like if larva generation timer reset instead of pause when 3+ is available at Hatchery. Take a look at Table C below. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XIwaD.png) When larva generation progress reset every time 4 larvae pop from Spawn Larva, I would have ended up with 29 drones, which is 5 larvae shorter than current state. The key is that generating 3 larvae takes 15sec*3+(2~5sec)=47~50sec while minimum Spawn Larvae interval is 44.4sec. Due to the shorter Spawn Larvae interval, only 2 larvae gets generated between 2 injects and 3rd larva’s progress is almost always lost at 13/15. Now, then what if I just timed injects so that 3 larvae always appear between 2 injects? Table D shows this scenario. I would have ended up with 37 drones, which is 37-29=8 more larvae than when inject timing is not timed well as in Table C. Coincidentally, this 37 larvae is exactly the same as in Table B, which is how I originally considered the only way to patch. Can this be alternative way to patch? For pure game logic reason, I would say yes. However, in terms of practical game play, I must say absolutely not. More natural patch as in Table B is so much more flexible regarding the inject timings. Making injects 1sec earlier or later has almost no impact overall. On the other hand, alternative patch as in Table C&D punishes 1sec earlier injects so severely that as much as 8 larvae can get lost in 10 min time. Terran equivalent of this would be dropping MULE 1 sec too “early,” not late, somehow gives you less resource despite better play by dropping mule on time. Protoss equivalent of this would be chronoboosting Nexus 1 sec too “early,” not late, somehow gives you less probes despite better play by doing it early. Had this rule implemented, keeping track of your inject timings and intentionally delaying it would become the #1 priority in Zerg play, and even DRG level player would have to stare at his hatcheries like some bronze players. Whoever thinks alternative patch is viable even after reading this section must be a true Zerg hater. | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
EDIT: Cool find though | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
If you are a Protoss: Imagine your warpgate having 10% chance for its cooldown to be doubled. Try to justify such kind of erratic behavior as intentional or insignificant. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 26 2012 12:11 figq wrote: If you are a Terran: Imagine your barracks having 10% chance for a marine to take twice its usual production time. If you are a Protoss: Imagine your warpgate having 10% chance for its cooldown to be doubled. Try to justify such kind of erratic behavior as intentional or insignificant. 10% chance? You mean 2% chance right? As it's close to 1/50 that it'll happen and if it didn't happen meanwhile your injecting perfectly it isn't going to happen anyway. Second of all, you can't compare the other races to the Zergs extreme production capability. Like I said before I agree it is bad and needs to be patched. But why are you exaggerating it so much. It very rarely happens and when it does it's so unnoticeable that it has almost zero effect on actual gameplay. The most effect in ZvZ where it's an equal chance for both players and still has almost zero effect. Like I said before the chance is ridiculously low, and has almost no effect with the Zerg production capabilities anyway. Seeing as nobody has noticed this for this long it clearly isn't too big a deal. | ||
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di3alot
172 Posts
nothing to discuss here | ||
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