EPTLarva disappearing Glitch in 1.5 (not about 20th larva) -…
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
On April 05 2012 08:36 Arkymedes wrote: Since this bug is triggered by the inject larva from the queen, which uses energy, the closest analogy I can think of is if 1 out of 10 mules you drop, or 1 out of 10 chrono boosts are lost. It is a big deal and need to be addressed. It's not nearly so severe. It would be more akin to if a quarter of your chrono boosts (in 1 in 10) was gone - in my mind, it is as if the chrono boost somehow boosted itself so that it ended 2.5% faster (and hence, for every 10 boosts, you lose 25% of one boost, which is akin to what is happening here.) I would like to see it addressed though, as a zerg player. :D More larva = more units = more gg.  | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
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DrPhilOfdOOm
Sweden353 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Really makes ZvZ a LOT more random particularly because early aggression is so huge in that MU. Shouldn't really be QQ worthy for Protoss or Terran as this is just adding more consistency to the game. Basically... This one small thing can account for up to 10% of losses in ZvX... My god this is huge... | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 31 2012 05:22 Glockateer wrote: Honestly, inject larva is so strong that this is insignificant. Missing one larva 7% of the time doesn't matter especially when zergs don't always use their extra larva consistently from either resources or busy managing elsewhere. It may be like this by design to begin with. Whether it is changed or not won't make much of a difference. No, your analogy is terrible. The battlecruiser is paid for before coming out whereas the larva is something free and didn't cost money to make. Trying to write this off as unimportant is horrible. Imagine if every single unit you made had a 15second delay added to its build time at random. It doesn't cost you more money, but there is no way for you to control it other than just make extra production facilities and cross your fingers. This is absolutely huge and should be addressed asaply by blizzard. | ||
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dc0cc
United States7 Posts
There are two things we have to consider- 1) Is this working as intended? We can deduce that this is not the case because it is not consistent with a measure that has ALREADY been implemented by blizzard to make sure that NOTHING interrupts the following principle. 1)One larva will spawn when the hatchery's "time under 3 larva" timer has hit 15 seconds NO MATTER WHAT The measure I am referring to is the pause timer on the natural larva spawn. If a Q larva spawn pops before a natural larva spawn cycle, assuming that we were under 3 natural larva during the pop, then there is a pause placed on the timer. This timer resumes to where it was before the pause as soon as the player dips back under 3 larva. This exact mechanic seems to exist so that Queen/Natural larva spawn time management is completely unnecessary. If blizzard wanted players to keep an eye on natural larva time, they would have either 1) introduce a natural larva timer 2) not have implemented this "pause" timer function to begin with 2) Does this introduce randomness into the game that can NOT be mitigated by player intervention? Ok, supposing it isn't working as intended, so what? Everything has been balanced according the outcomes of games with this bug intact, removing it would only serve to unhinge an already delicate tightrope walk. Ignoring the fact that this argument actually defeats itself (changing anything disrupts everything, hence why re-balances follow balances) - mechanical randomness is the bane of competitive anything that doesn't rely on mechanical randomness as the foundation of the game itself. (Poker is an exception because players are dealt hands that are "mechanically random" but everyone else's hands are just as random - I'm sure there are others). The underlying principle being that we are faced with a mechanically random probability in a game that is supposed to be working towards minimizing these chance occurrences. Can it be mitigated by player intervention? - Absolutely not. There is no natural larva timer, and therefore no way to accurately predict when the two spawning cycles will fall within the 1.5 second window. Whether or not this random event is game changing doesn't matter. If it is game-changing then it should be changed because a player will have a significant unfair advantage due to a dice roll that is beyond his/her/korean control. If itisn't game gamechanging, then it should be changed because it isn't working as intended and it changing it won't disrupt the flow of the game that much anyways. | ||
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
On April 11 2012 04:26 dc0cc wrote: This is a bug. Trying to relate this to another game mechanic is impossible without doing some serious heavyweight calculations with a bunch of variables included. Until this is done, someone else is just going to bring up some additional variable to invalidate a mechanics-comparison argument and we'll be dancing in circles until the end of time. But I don't think that a mechanics-comparison is even necessary to determine that this as a bug. There are two things we have to consider- 1) Is this working as intended? We can deduce that this is not the case because it is not consistent with a measure that has ALREADY been implemented by blizzard to make sure that NOTHING interrupts the following principle. 1)One larva will spawn when the hatchery's "time under 3 larva" timer has hit 15 seconds NO MATTER WHAT The measure I am referring to is the pause timer on the natural larva spawn. If a Q larva spawn pops before a natural larva spawn cycle, assuming that we were under 3 natural larva during the pop, then there is a pause placed on the timer. This timer resumes to where it was before the pause as soon as the player dips back under 3 larva. This exact mechanic seems to exist so that Queen/Natural larva spawn time management is completely unnecessary. If blizzard wanted players to keep an eye on natural larva time, they would have either 1) introduce a natural larva timer 2) not have implemented this "pause" timer function to begin with 2) Does this introduce randomness into the game that can NOT be mitigated by player intervention? Ok, supposing it isn't working as intended, so what? Everything has been balanced according the outcomes of games with this bug intact, removing it would only serve to unhinge an already delicate tightrope walk. Ignoring the fact that this argument actually defeats itself (changing anything disrupts everything, hence why re-balances follow balances) - mechanical randomness is the bane of competitive anything that doesn't rely on mechanical randomness as the foundation of the game itself. (Poker is an exception because players are dealt hands that are "mechanically random" but everyone else's hands are just as random - I'm sure there are others). The underlying principle being that we are faced with a mechanically random probability in a game that is supposed to be working towards minimizing these chance occurrences. Can it be mitigated by player intervention? - Absolutely not. There is no natural larva timer, and therefore no way to accurately predict when the two spawning cycles will fall within the 1.5 second window. Whether or not this random event is game changing doesn't matter. If it is game-changing then it should be changed because a player will have a significant unfair advantage due to a dice roll that is beyond his/her/korean control. If itisn't game gamechanging, then it should be changed because it isn't working as intended and it changing it won't disrupt the flow of the game that much anyways. It is game changing, no doubt about it. One missing larva can be the deciding factor in a game, so therefore it should be fixed. There's really no debate. Even if it wasn't game changing it should still be fixed since it's a bug that can give slight advantages or slight disadvantages. I don't see why a bug of this manner has to be "justified" to be fixed.. | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
I would like to see this get fixed. EVERY LARVAE IS SACRED | ||
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Souldrinkah
Sweden48 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
That being said, I agree with some other points regarding the overlap of mule casting and I would agree, based on that, that hatcheries should always spawn 3 larva regardless of timing of spawn larva spell. OP should make this point more clear in the opening post. | ||
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dc0cc
United States7 Posts
The issue is that there is an internal timer for each hatchery that is being reset when it should be paused. Each hatchery has a "time spent under 3 larva" (hereby referred to as the TS3) timer that resets every 15 seconds as long as there is less than 3 larvae at the hatch. Every time it resets, a larva pops. This timer will be paused if a group of Queen Larvae pop to bring it over 3. It will resume where it last left off the next time the larva count dips below 3. If the TS3 is anywhere between 13.5 and 14.99 when the Queen Larvae pop, it resets without producing a larva the next time the larvae count dips below 3 instead of resuming at 13.5-14.99. This is the only case in which this timer resets without producing a larva (and seemingly arbitrarily at that). Read the OP again if you still do not understand. | ||
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Xkfyu
United States165 Posts
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Gluon
Netherlands385 Posts
That means less randomness, but same amount of larva when averaged out over the time of 10 or so injects. Anyone who feels the same? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The huge MU affected by this, both now and by a future fix is ZvZ. ZvZ is a MU that often ends with 1 and 2 base aggression where a single larva often means the difference between an outright win and a loss. Unlike ZvP or ZvT, it is probably safe to say that a solid 50% of ZvZ are determined by the difference of 2-3 more units. (Like PvP if that makes more sense to you). Often time, the money is available, the supply is available, and the queen is hitting her inject, but there's just not quite enough larva. Thinking back over the past year... How many of those games have been determined not by a brilliant move by the victor, but by this glitch adding up 2-3 times over the course of the game, putting the loser down by just enough units to be no contest? Almost every Zerg player here understands exactly what's going on here once its brought up because we've all experienced it, we just all chalked it up to our own bad macro. The fact that ZvZs have been getting randomly determined due to bad game mechanics for the past 2 years is huge and in order for that MU specifically to remain competitive and fair, this needs to be resolved as soon as possible. I doubt ZvT and ZvP would change much. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Angry.Zerg
Mexico305 Posts
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