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On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt?
A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
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On March 22 2012 05:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread What's wrong with his statement? I've heard numerous protoss, not only on these forums, lament about the fact that they have to look away from a battle to warp in units and how Terran macro during a battle is so much easier because they can just tab through production buildings while never looking away from the screen of battle. You can actually turn warpgates back into gateways. So if it really is such a disadvantage, just do that and voila, you can ezmacro just like a terran or zerg now.
because the warp- in reinforcements is necessary....
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On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. About his argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
Not one whining progamer.
Beatyqt, Demuslim, Jinro, Merz, Sjow, Avilo, Cloud out of the top of my head.
I follow most of these guys on twitter and I regularly hear their opinions on protoss. If you would add the progamers who agree with this but aren't vocal about it I think you have quite a few.
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On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
First sentence and you are already full of shit...
Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran.
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On March 22 2012 05:02 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:49 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
All I'd like to see, is all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better. That is a statistic, because I've been high masters P and high masters T, and I can say they both have a level of difficulty (masters T was before the ghost nerf for snipe but not before EMP nerf so PvT has been largely unchanged since the EMP range nerf)
So here, instead of making a thread about whining, make a thread asking people who decided to quit to rank up past there previous ranking but a substantial margin (went from diamond to mid masters, bronze to plat) and then I'll be convinced protoss is to easy, I dont see it right now, and dont agree because we're comparing apples and oranges.
I got my friends account to mid masters playing protoss, and I am a diamond terran. I have a friend who hit GM with protoss 4gating, but couldn't get into masters as terran. I still recommend that most people who are still trying to improve their mechanics play aggressive bio vs protoss like we always have. At some point 1-1-1 will get nerfed again, and if we are really lucky, the ghost change will revert, or something else will change, and the matchup will become more even. The problem right now is that blizz patched both allins and standard play, so there aren't that many options. On the bright side, beating a protoss who is evenly matched means you played really really well!
names/accounts/proof through Ladder history, 2ndly was this 4gating back when it wasn't nerfed? you need to be describe before you post flawed stats with no backing
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On March 22 2012 05:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player  The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. Beasty is my new favorite player. You know what I like most about this post? That beasty is one of the few pro terrans who openly complains about TvP and isn't just politically correct going "yeah it's all k.... mkay?" (my respect for beasty is over 9000 because of this thread here alone - someone who is honest, I really respect that more than anything) More terran pros should post in this thread, demuslim for example, he is one of the most honest players in the world and complained about protoss quite recently.. he even said that ghosts were OP before the snipe nerf, so he's not just blindly saying "T needs buff" or something like that. Please beasty bring more T pros to post here, people need to stop with this "political" correctness bullshit where they say that everything is ok when it obviously isn't. The only way for blizzard to change anything is if we complain. Everyone used to constantly complain about T and we got nerf after nerf and now that we are in the position to complain because it's so obvious most terran player act like puss*es and keep their mouths shut because they don't want to be "whiners". Come on terran brothers be honest and say what you think, stop with this "everything is ok" nonsense. I'm sure most Professional players avoid these boards like the plague because when they do attempt to lend their expertise and knowledge (Beasty and Yosho) people either ignore them completely or tell them it's irellevant because it's anectdotal evidence. And yea, there's numerous Korean Terrans who have stated that they think TvP is broken (ForGG, Dragon, Polt, MMA, MVP, Clide to name a few, I'm sure you've heard of them.) but they get ignored as well because as everyone knows T OP in Korea...
polt said terran was op, so you can't really nominate him...
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On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. About his argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
What a load of crock. Diamond Terrans? Yes, I'd expect them to be posting here because this IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT GSL LEVEL BALANCE. And myself and many others are master league or above, hardly braindead noobs who know nothing. We've had more than 1 high level Random player talk in here about TvP problems vs PvT problems. Show me these Terrans have are having success vs Protoss LOL. Naruto came in here theory crafting, while giving us NO replays or build orders. Beasty even told him Happy has stopped using mass Ghost since the nerf. And I watch KR stream almost every night, I see him get obliterated in TvP pretty regularly, just like any other Terran streamer. Don't know how many times we can repeat it, but it goes WAY beyond BeastyQT who thinks theres an imbalance in TvP (not necessarily OP but an imbalance). DDE has played both Terran and Protoss to a high (top10) GM level and said that he feels Protoss is less mechanically demanding, and relies more on decision making and chonoboost usage. Numerous Korean terrans have spoken about it. Demuslim has spoken on the subject. Hell, even BlinG said, "Protoss OP. Storm" after his latest victory. You're either being willingly ignorant or trolling us. Open your eyes and ears, Terran PROS as well as casuals have been discontent with the TvP matchup for a while now.
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On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran.
From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not complainging about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be.
Edit: Did not feel as stronly as the word I used. Corrected.
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On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
I started playing SC2 2 months after beta was done and I wasnt "known" till 6-12 months ago, but valid points you make as seen here.
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On March 22 2012 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran. From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not whining about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be.
Mhm, discussing about balance and stating your opinion is now considered whining ?(Mostly for Terran pros as I see). Then you all are whiners and your opinion is even more worthless then his lol.Also, he has arguments to support his opinion and he's being rational about it (most of the time). There are some whining pros who goes to TL to drop their "wisdom" and are being considered as contributors for the community, while Beastyqt seems to be opposite.
Also, "who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta" is way over the top (and even more because it's a lie) and is actually ban worthly in my opinion.
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On March 22 2012 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran. From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not whining about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be.
Anectdotal evidence. Irrelevant. We need numbers, statistics, charts and graphs.
On a more serious note: Get off Beasty's back. I've seen him make many inciteful and knowledgable posts (you know, what you would expect from a PRO). Look up some of his interviews, he makes many good points about the current game state that are clearly not Terran biased. I don't see how you could misconstrue anything he's said in this thread as whining as he has come with numbers to support his claims. Watch his stream, he also occasionaly plays random at EU GM level so his knowledge of the game goes beyond just Terran. And who are you to bash others about bias lol, most biased poster in this entire thread.
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On March 22 2012 05:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread What's wrong with his statement? I've heard numerous protoss, not only on these forums, lament about the fact that they have to look away from a battle to warp in units and how Terran macro during a battle is so much easier because they can just tab through production buildings while never looking away from the screen of battle. You can actually turn warpgates back into gateways. So if it really is such a disadvantage, just do that and voila, you can ezmacro just like a terran or zerg now.
Try holding off early game agression without warpgates. Just try it. That's why you get warpgates. Maybe (heavy, heavy emphasis on maybe) eventually it'll be determined that when doing a micro intensive strategy like mass Blink Stalkers, it'll be advantageous to build more gateways and use them as gateways (despite flushing 50/50 down the toilet for the early game safety), but you'd have to be doing some damn crucial micro to ignore the positional and time-oriented limitations of gateways.
Really though, try to come up with a build that's safe to early agression without using warpgate. You'll find it's very, very hard.
Edit: Wrong quote.
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On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school.
I wouldn't really call Naruto and Kawaiirice succesfull. Awesome players, yes. Succesfull, no.
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Not a single Protoss in this thread has posted there MU percentages.
Hmmmmm I wonder?
I'd love to see some master Ps sample of 100ish games or more
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On March 22 2012 06:11 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:53 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran. From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not whining about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be. Anectdotal evidence. Irrelevant. We need numbers, statistics, charts and graphs. On a more serious note: Get off Beasty's back. I've seen him make many inciteful and knowledgable posts (you know, what you would expect from a PRO). Look up some of his interviews, he makes many good points about the current game state that are clearly not Terran biased. I don't see how you could misconstrue anything he's said in this thread as whining as he has come with numbers to support his claims. Watch his stream, he also occasionaly plays random at EU GM level so his knowledge of the game goes beyond just Terran. And who are you to bash others about bias lol, most biased poster in this entire thread.
That may be the case and he does seem to have some valid points. But I stand by my point that I have never personally seen him posting anything that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. Much like Idra, who complains about protoss all the time, I don't really take it seriously.
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On March 22 2012 06:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 06:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 22 2012 05:53 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran. From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not whining about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be. Anectdotal evidence. Irrelevant. We need numbers, statistics, charts and graphs. On a more serious note: Get off Beasty's back. I've seen him make many inciteful and knowledgable posts (you know, what you would expect from a PRO). Look up some of his interviews, he makes many good points about the current game state that are clearly not Terran biased. I don't see how you could misconstrue anything he's said in this thread as whining as he has come with numbers to support his claims. Watch his stream, he also occasionaly plays random at EU GM level so his knowledge of the game goes beyond just Terran. And who are you to bash others about bias lol, most biased poster in this entire thread. That may be the case and he does seem to have some valid points. But I stand by my point that I have never personally seen him posting anything that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. Much like Idra, who complains about protoss all the time, I don't really take it seriously.
Examples, you horrible horrible trash poster:
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13991456
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13954073
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13866427
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13773330
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13747857
etc etc.
Now stop bashing Beastyqt!
And please make the showmatch happen!
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On March 22 2012 06:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 06:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 22 2012 05:53 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2012 05:47 Huragius wrote:On March 22 2012 05:37 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread Pro level? beastyqt? A bunch of diamond terrans and beastyqt, who is already notoriously known for being whiny and bm since beta. His argument about how he didn't "deserve" to lose for not dodging 1 storm is not unique to tvp. That is how sc2 is, one fungal, banelings vs marines, vortex, storm, force field all are game changing and you can lose in an instant in any matchup. There are plenty of terrans who are not whiny and have success vs protoss. Naruto has openly stated in this thread that marine ghost will help alot of terrans who rely on marauders the entire game, Lastshadow has made 3 30 min vlogs on tvp explaining in detail how to play with ghost marine/ engagements. Same goes for kawaiirice who used to think tvp was utterly unwinnable and changed his mindset and has improved drastically. Point is every diamond player in this thread is rallying around 1 whiny progamer, when in reality there are those who have success and don't want to argue with said diamond players because they will be ignored and it is not worth the time. Also don't give me the argument that terran takes more apm so its imbalanced, this is not grade school. First sentence and you are already full of shit... Also, are very good at picking arguments from players, that share the same opinion just like you (more or less). But take in mind, that Beastyqt is way superior to them and his opinion shares whole different value. And no, he's far from being whiny Terran. From personal experiance in a number of threads since I joined TL, I have never seen a post from Beastyqt that was not whining about something. I am dead serious on that, too. I have never notices a post that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. He may be a great guy, but I don't think he is as unbias as you are making him out to be. Anectdotal evidence. Irrelevant. We need numbers, statistics, charts and graphs. On a more serious note: Get off Beasty's back. I've seen him make many inciteful and knowledgable posts (you know, what you would expect from a PRO). Look up some of his interviews, he makes many good points about the current game state that are clearly not Terran biased. I don't see how you could misconstrue anything he's said in this thread as whining as he has come with numbers to support his claims. Watch his stream, he also occasionaly plays random at EU GM level so his knowledge of the game goes beyond just Terran. And who are you to bash others about bias lol, most biased poster in this entire thread. That may be the case and he does seem to have some valid points. But I stand by my point that I have never personally seen him posting anything that was not centered around some sort of imbalance. Much like Idra, who complains about protoss all the time, I don't really take it seriously.
Either you missed my little post about more progamers not being fond of the TvP matchup or you're going horribly offtopic (this isn't the ''Where did all the Beastyqt's go?'' topic (joke)).
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Quantic Apocalypse is a really good player who beats a ton of Code A and Code S players!
He now streams a ton :B
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On March 22 2012 06:18 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:35 SupLilSon wrote:On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread What's wrong with his statement? I've heard numerous protoss, not only on these forums, lament about the fact that they have to look away from a battle to warp in units and how Terran macro during a battle is so much easier because they can just tab through production buildings while never looking away from the screen of battle. You can actually turn warpgates back into gateways. So if it really is such a disadvantage, just do that and voila, you can ezmacro just like a terran or zerg now. Try holding off early game agression without warpgates. Just try it. That's why you get warpgates. Maybe (heavy, heavy emphasis on maybe) eventually it'll be determined that when doing a micro intensive strategy like mass Blink Stalkers, it'll be advantageous to build more gateways and use them as gateways (despite flushing 50/50 down the toilet for the early game safety), but you'd have to be doing some damn crucial micro to ignore the positional and time-oriented limitations of gateways. Really though, try to come up with a build that's safe to early agression without using warpgate. You'll find it's very, very hard. Edit: Wrong quote.
I was being sarcastic. Of course Protoss needs to use warpgates. B/c warpgate is strong as hell. Protoss players complaining about warpgate is like Terran players complaining that Stim damages their units (never ever heard someone complain about that). Warpgate mechanic is so ridiculously strong that it needs some sort of drawback.
The point was, Protoss can actually revert to normal production, just like Terran but no Protoss would actually do that because the benefits of WG far outweigh the ability to macro on the fly.
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EPT
