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On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player  The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up.
Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues.
Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced.
Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it:
Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you.
About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss.
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I've offraced as zerg for a while (I'm a gold terran) and have to say that zvt is much easier for me than tvz. Sitting back, injecting , macroing and responding when he pushes out is so much easier than being aggressive.
I've played 6 zvts and lost one game to a super aggresive player: he used blue flame hellions, marines and medivac drops to keep me busy while expanding behind it, eventually he was on 3 bases and I was on 2 and I got simply overwhelmed. The others weren't nearly as aggresive and I won using infestor/ling.
I won one zvz (using Destiny's ZvZ from liquipedia) and lost all my zvps.
However the sample size is quite small so it could just be a coincidence. I wonder if other terrans have similar experiences.
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On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss.
I'd love to see this grudge match. Please! Bo3!
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On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss.
Beasty is my new favorite player. You know what I like most about this post? That beasty is one of the few pro terrans who openly complains about TvP and isn't just politically correct going "yeah it's all k.... mkay?" (my respect for beasty is over 9000 because of this thread here alone - someone who is honest, I really respect that more than anything)
More terran pros should post in this thread, demuslim for example, he is one of the most honest players in the world and complained about protoss quite recently.. he even said that ghosts were OP before the snipe nerf, so he's not just blindly saying "T needs buff" or something like that. Please beasty bring more T pros to post here, people need to stop with this "political" correctness bullshit where they say that everything is ok when it obviously isn't. The only way for blizzard to change anything is if we complain. Everyone used to constantly complain about T and we got nerf after nerf and now that we are in the position to complain because it's so obvious most terran player act like puss*es and keep their mouths shut because they don't want to be "whiners". Come on terran brothers be honest and say what you think, stop with this "everything is ok" nonsense.
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On March 22 2012 04:36 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. Beasty is my new favorite player. You know what I like most about this post? That beasty is one of the few pro terrans who openly complains about TvP and isn't just politically correct going "yeah it's all k.... mkay?" (my respect for beasty is over 9000 because of this thread here alone - someone who is honest, I really respect that more than anything) More terran pros should post in this thread, demuslim for example, he is one of the most honest players in the world and complained about protoss quite recently.. he even said that ghosts were OP before the snipe nerf, so he's not just blindly saying "T needs buff" or something like that. Please beasty bring more T pros to post here, people need to stop with this "political" correctness bullshit where they say that everything is ok when it obviously isn't. The only way for blizzard to change anything is if we complain. Everyone used to constantly complain about T and we got nerf after nerf and now that we are in the position to complain because it's so obvious most terran player act like puss*es and keep their mouths shut because they don't want to be "whiners". Come on terran brothers be honest and say what you think, stop with this "everything is ok" nonsense.
Eh, plenty of korean terrans have stated their sentiments on stream or elsewise about TvP for months.
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On March 22 2012 04:41 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. Beasty is my new favorite player. You know what I like most about this post? That beasty is one of the few pro terrans who openly complains about TvP and isn't just politically correct going "yeah it's all k.... mkay?" (my respect for beasty is over 9000 because of this thread here alone - someone who is honest, I really respect that more than anything) More terran pros should post in this thread, demuslim for example, he is one of the most honest players in the world and complained about protoss quite recently.. he even said that ghosts were OP before the snipe nerf, so he's not just blindly saying "T needs buff" or something like that. Please beasty bring more T pros to post here, people need to stop with this "political" correctness bullshit where they say that everything is ok when it obviously isn't. The only way for blizzard to change anything is if we complain. Everyone used to constantly complain about T and we got nerf after nerf and now that we are in the position to complain because it's so obvious most terran player act like puss*es and keep their mouths shut because they don't want to be "whiners". Come on terran brothers be honest and say what you think, stop with this "everything is ok" nonsense. Eh, plenty of korean terrans have stated their sentiments on stream or elsewise about TvP for months.
Korean terrans yes, but foreign terrans? The only foreign pro terrans that openly complained about TvP are beasty, demuslim, cloud and avilo. And everyone else is too politically correct to say anything, which I find really, really sad.
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Or the rest of them are no longer playing, which is the thread OP all about.
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On March 22 2012 04:18 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:12 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 22 2012 03:53 sushichef wrote:On March 22 2012 03:43 Plansix wrote:
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg. Ok clear, a semi-pro terran player who also got into GM with protoss whose opinion is different from yours is not an authority for you. But the semi-pro protoss player whose views are similar to yours is authoritative enough. What about Beastyqt who's posted here too? Your post above is full of presumptions. I do practice. I know I don't need to be anywhere close to MMA's level. I don't throw my hands up in the air and pray. I'm saying what I see: skill ceiling from platinum to mid-masters (where I am now) is much lower for protoss players than for terrans. I'm not the only one saying that, and it's one of the main reasons terrans are quitting 1v1s. How many times does this need to be repeated? Read the bloody thread title. I don't think you'll ever manage to make him concede anything at this discussion. If you check his posts, you'll see he has been denying every argument from anyone. If MC himself came here telling this to him, he would deny. It's pointless. I am literally the exact skill level you referance. I don't know why you expect me to say that I am have far less skill that others simply because I play protoss. I have played this game over a year and you expect me to say that I am worse that my terran opponents? I have said in my previous posts, which were mostly ignored, that terran does have some issues late game. I have said in other posts that the ghost was over nerfted for zerg and terrans do lack a clear late game transition/unit mix against protoss. I even asked questions about the late game terran army and what a terran should focus on to try to draw the discussion in that direction. I will never deny that a specific group of players is having a rough time. But I will alway argue against the idea that their opponents are less skilled than they are. Ok. Let me just ask you one thing then: what's your take on why most terrans are having a hard time in TvP in the plat-master range, while most protoss players have a nice PvT winning rate at the same range?
I think there are a number of issues, but I have limited time to respond. I will keep them short.
1: A lot of terrans lose the game in the mid game, but do not know that is when they lost. The protoss then uses their advantage to win, but it takes until the late game. This is a big issue, because you don't always enter the late game on equal footing.
2: Not enough experience with Ghost. They are the last units most terrans get and are not used in the other match ups often. Because of this, terran players simply are not used to controling them at much.
3: Lack of a clear path or how to play. There is no "best" or right way to play. Most terrans go for the super supply army, but knowing when to do that is hard and there is no "que" for doing it.
4: The ghost likely cost to much in minerals and not enough in gas. Terran do have a rough time spending gas in the end game an ghost would likely be better if they had a cost similar to the raito of HTs.
Thats all I can do right now, but that is what I think are some big issues. The equal footing issue is big, because I think a lot of people are not aware that they lost because of the mid game. It is really true in PvZ, where the zerg can just A move over you if you leave them alone for to long.
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Northern Ireland25773 Posts
On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss.
Agreed with a lot of this, PvT has swung in the Toss favour due to a combination of nerfs/buffs to the respective races, and the game being much better figured out than it was previously. The difficulty with Terran is kind of similar to the Protoss' early game, i.e, 'miss forcefields and you lose'. However as a Protoss player I acknowledge that it is much easier not to screw up holding those Terran pushes because you know they are coming well in advance (at specific timings), and thus you are more alert.
Terran has the same 'one mistake and I'm dead' problem in the lategame, but it's a lot less well-defined WHEN those points will come, ergo a Terran has to have a similar level of alertness and sustain that over 10+ minutes which is extremely draining mentally.
I think Blizzard overbuffed and over-nerfed when really they should have let certain things settle. At the very least please revert the reduced upgrade costs, dual forge turtling is still a viable style without the cost reduction. Give Terran their old EMP radius back, or snipe back to what it was. Those two nerfs in combination are gimping Terran's lategame vs both Protoss and Zerg.
One thing I do hate, and always have is the the 'Protoss ez' bullshit that we have to put up with every godamn thread. Try playing PvZ, it's just as bad as TvP currently is and just as unforgiving.
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On March 22 2012 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:49 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
All I'd like to see, is all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better. That is a statistic, because I've been high masters P and high masters T, and I can say they both have a level of difficulty (masters T was before the ghost nerf for snipe but not before EMP nerf so PvT has been largely unchanged since the EMP range nerf)
So here, instead of making a thread about whining, make a thread asking people who decided to quit to rank up past there previous ranking but a substantial margin (went from diamond to mid masters, bronze to plat) and then I'll be convinced protoss is to easy, I dont see it right now, and dont agree because we're comparing apples and oranges.
uhmmm, we developed our MMR at release thats why were in the same league. Its not like TvP is so bad that I go from Masters to gold.
um we develop are MMR everygame... So if the census is that T is so much harder than P, than if you switch to P you will RAISE that MMR and get into a higher league... You're mmr doesn't stop, it shifts constantly with matches.
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I find stutter step micro in TvP easier than blink micro in PvZ. I find TvP more forgiving (and with more room to outplay your opponent) than the forced 4-gate in PvP on Tal'Darim. I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. The misconception that protoss players are all microless cretins who play the game by a-moving on the minimap is just that: a misconception.
I'm not trying to tell you that your race is fine, or that you don't have "real" hardships - but in venting about your hardships as Terran players, you might seem a bit more credible if you didn't insist that our hardships were not also real and legitimate.
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On March 22 2012 04:31 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. I'd love to see this grudge match. Please! Bo3!
me too I'm there and I wish to see it!
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On March 22 2012 02:49 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
All I'd like to see, is all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better. That is a statistic, because I've been high masters P and high masters T, and I can say they both have a level of difficulty (masters T was before the ghost nerf for snipe but not before EMP nerf so PvT has been largely unchanged since the EMP range nerf)
So here, instead of making a thread about whining, make a thread asking people who decided to quit to rank up past there previous ranking but a substantial margin (went from diamond to mid masters, bronze to plat) and then I'll be convinced protoss is to easy, I dont see it right now, and dont agree because we're comparing apples and oranges.
I got my friends account to mid masters playing protoss, and I am a diamond terran. I have a friend who hit GM with protoss 4gating, but couldn't get into masters as terran.
I still recommend that most people who are still trying to improve their mechanics play aggressive bio vs protoss like we always have. At some point 1-1-1 will get nerfed again, and if we are really lucky, the ghost change will revert, or something else will change, and the matchup will become more even. The problem right now is that blizz patched both allins and standard play, so there aren't that many options.
On the bright side, beating a protoss who is evenly matched means you played really really well!
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On March 22 2012 04:36 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. Beasty is my new favorite player. You know what I like most about this post? That beasty is one of the few pro terrans who openly complains about TvP and isn't just politically correct going "yeah it's all k.... mkay?" (my respect for beasty is over 9000 because of this thread here alone - someone who is honest, I really respect that more than anything) More terran pros should post in this thread, demuslim for example, he is one of the most honest players in the world and complained about protoss quite recently.. he even said that ghosts were OP before the snipe nerf, so he's not just blindly saying "T needs buff" or something like that. Please beasty bring more T pros to post here, people need to stop with this "political" correctness bullshit where they say that everything is ok when it obviously isn't. The only way for blizzard to change anything is if we complain. Everyone used to constantly complain about T and we got nerf after nerf and now that we are in the position to complain because it's so obvious most terran player act like puss*es and keep their mouths shut because they don't want to be "whiners". Come on terran brothers be honest and say what you think, stop with this "everything is ok" nonsense.
I'm sure most Professional players avoid these boards like the plague because when they do attempt to lend their expertise and knowledge (Beasty and Yosho) people either ignore them completely or tell them it's irellevant because it's anectdotal evidence. And yea, there's numerous Korean Terrans who have stated that they think TvP is broken (ForGG, Dragon, Polt, MMA, MVP, Clide to name a few, I'm sure you've heard of them.) but they get ignored as well because as everyone knows T OP in Korea...
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I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going.
not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units.
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On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:Show nested quote +I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units.
and this is the level of players arguing in this thread
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On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread
Pro level? beastyqt?
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On March 22 2012 05:18 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:13 jabberjaw wrote:I'll also point out that while you micro you don't have to look at a pylon to keep your production going. not really an issue because you can always not have warpgates and instead regular gateways if this that big of an issue. problem solved. even with that drawback of warp gates, it's benefits far outweigh having to move scroll to a pylon and warp in units. and this is the level of players arguing in this thread
What's wrong with his statement? I've heard numerous protoss, not only on these forums, lament about the fact that they have to look away from a battle to warp in units and how Terran macro during a battle is so much easier because they can just tab through production buildings while never looking away from the screen of battle. You can actually turn warpgates back into gateways. So if it really is such a disadvantage, just do that and voila, you can ezmacro just like a terran or zerg now.
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I'm high master EU and what I really wish for is that one day Terran will also be able to sit back, relax, take bases, and make a monster deathball.
In TvZ this is sort of doable, but you still have to play aggressive so the zerg won't have the chance to make his broodlord/corruptor/infestor army.
I feel like TvP is even worse in the race against the clock sense. If protoss is allowed to get his upgrades/tech/bases/gateways up, then the game is most likely over.
It would feel incredible good to one day be able to take a fast expand, go for my third, and defending zerg and protoss attack waves, while I wait for my awesome ball of death and punishment so I can move out on the map and deliver death, punishment, pain, suffering and sorrow. One day 
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EPT
