Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 110

On March 22 2012 01:44 sushichef wrote:
Recap of the thread for anyone who's just checking in.

OP asks where all the terrans have gone.

A large number of terrans from silver to high-masters reply saying they've stopped playing, and a lot of them cite TvP for the reason they don't play the game anymore. The consensus is the match up is unforgiving, volatile, and frustrating due to terran's margin of error being razor-slim whereas protoss can make many mistakes and still win. Several high-masters random players say the same things, as do a couple of pros. You would think this answers the question: terrans are quitting 1v1s because it's not fun, mainly due to one matchup.

Yet there's a small number of people in this thread, mainly but not all protoss players, that keep derailing it towards a balance discussion at the pro level, and keep telling terrans to get better, w/o addressing many of the concerns, often cherry-picking small inaccuracies to focus on, and often employing sarcasm and over-exaggeration to make fun of terrans posting in this thread.

Type|Naruto is a terran pro player that's doing a huge disservice to all casual terran players by repeatedly making posts along the lines of "stop caring about balance, practice more and get better". A fine mindset for a pro, but completely missing the point of this thread. (Though whether he truly means it is questionable, as I've just seen him cry imbalance in a TvZ game on his stream, oh the irony.)

+ Show Spoiler +

This is NOT a balance discussion thread, even though there have been suggestions on balance changes that would make TvP a more fun matchup to play AND watch, so please, if you're a protoss player do not talk about pro-level balance, do not tell us to "get better" and do not try to argue against the fact that hundreds of terran players have said the quit playing because of TvP.

If you're a terran player and you've stopped playing 1v1s or maybe play less than you used to, please post your win % in you matchups so that we have more data, as well as any info on how you feel about the various MUs and the game in general.

EDIT: added translation.

On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:

Says the protoss player

The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea.

What's your best MU out of interest? :p

Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking.

On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:


I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up.

On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:


I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up.

On March 22 2012 01:44 sushichef wrote:
Recap of the thread for anyone who's just checking in.

OP asks where all the terrans have gone.

A large number of terrans from silver to high-masters reply saying they've stopped playing, and a lot of them cite TvP for the reason they don't play the game anymore. The consensus is the match up is unforgiving, volatile, and frustrating due to terran's margin of error being razor-slim whereas protoss can make many mistakes and still win. Several high-masters random players say the same things, as do a couple of pros. You would think this answers the question: terrans are quitting 1v1s because it's not fun, mainly due to one matchup.

Yet there's a small number of people in this thread, mainly but not all protoss players, that keep derailing it towards a balance discussion at the pro level, and keep telling terrans to get better, w/o addressing many of the concerns, often cherry-picking small inaccuracies to focus on, and often employing sarcasm and over-exaggeration to make fun of terrans posting in this thread.

Type|Naruto is a terran pro player that's doing a huge disservice to all casual terran players by repeatedly making posts along the lines of "stop caring about balance, practice more and get better". A fine mindset for a pro, but completely missing the point of this thread. (Though whether he truly means it is questionable, as I've just seen him cry imbalance in a TvZ game on his stream, oh the irony.)

+ Show Spoiler +

This is NOT a balance discussion thread, even though there have been suggestions on balance changes that would make TvP a more fun matchup to play AND watch, so please, if you're a protoss player do not talk about pro-level balance, do not tell us to "get better" and do not try to argue against the fact that hundreds of terran players have said the quit playing because of TvP.

If you're a terran player and you've stopped playing 1v1s or maybe play less than you used to, please post your win % in you matchups so that we have more data, as well as any info on how you feel about the various MUs and the game in general.

EDIT: added translation.

On March 22 2012 02:41 petro1987 wrote:


So you have sick TvP too, right? Then why exactly do you main P? Can you objectively compare your PvT and TvP (exact numbers)? I don't think anyone disagress that the average gamer lacks the "skillset" required to play TvP well. This so called "skillset" is just harder to acquire than the PvT "skillset" for instance. Please prove us wrong and show your TvP is better than your PvT.

On March 22 2012 02:46 Joedaddy wrote:
Something I have been thinking about is my struggle to retain my ghosts in late game engagements and getting the critical emps needed against templar compositions. So many times my ghosts just die before I can use all their energy, and even if I do use all of their energy they feel really expensive in terms of both resources and build time to replace. It also makes it increasingly difficult to get the "mass" ghost numbers that Naruto and others talk about.

I know cloak is the most obvious thing to look at, but I've found that its not always possible to snipe the observers before an engagement happens.

So my question is this: Should I be using the hold fire command on my ghosts until after I get the emps off? If ghosts do have hold fire on will it make it so that enemy units will bypass them and target my actual attacking units first? Right now my biggest problem in the engagement seems to be my ghosts dying before I can get them in emp range of the HT's.

Hope that made sense. Thanks.

On March 22 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:


A semi professional protoss comes in and lays out a road map for possible ways to beat late game protoss and this is what you ask? Do you just want him to admit that Protoss is an easier race so you can feel good about yourself? Do you even want to know/find a way to beat protoss late game?

On March 22 2012 02:42 XXXSmOke wrote:


Wow...

Good post,

Choking on the irony from naruto bahahahah.

30-40% TvP Winrate since summer. Broke the damn game.

On March 22 2012 02:49 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
All I'd like to see, is all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better. That is a statistic, because I've been high masters P and high masters T, and I can say they both have a level of difficulty (masters T was before the ghost nerf for snipe but not before EMP nerf so PvT has been largely unchanged since the EMP range nerf)

So here, instead of making a thread about whining, make a thread asking people who decided to quit to rank up past there previous ranking but a substantial margin (went from diamond to mid masters, bronze to plat) and then I'll be convinced protoss is to easy, I dont see it right now, and dont agree because we're comparing apples and oranges.

all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better

On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:


Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean.

On March 22 2012 03:11 decaf wrote:

How? Make protoss harder, that's how.
Pros are capable of adapting to a harder game, if charge wasn't autocasted and you had to micro zealots or something like that it shouldn't affect pros at all (as long as they're good and if they aren't they deserve to lose anyway), but you'll have better balance for noob players (masters to mid GM).

On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:


I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up.