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On March 22 2012 03:17 Plansix wrote:
Well if we are going to make insane, entitled request; how about you just get better at the game and save Blizzard the development cost of balancing it for your skill level? Seriously, I really think that money could be better spent, like on tacos for the balance team. Or better yet, icecream.
Seriously, are you kidding. The professionals have no issues with balance, but you do. So the game should be changed for you because you don't want to put in the effort to get better?
Sarcasm, over-exaggeration, poking fun at terran posters, repeating "get better" ad nauseam; all mentioned in my summary above.
Go read what dde just posted. Do you consider him good enough for you to accept his opinion on the subject of this thread, or will you keep arguing about balance and keep telling casual gamers to get as good as the pros?
Zealot HT archon has a ridiculously low skill ceiling and should be the #1 thing for Blizzard to address. It's easy enough to do as well without affecting pro play much but making it much more manageable for casual terrans to deal with.
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On March 22 2012 02:54 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:42 XXXSmOke wrote:On March 22 2012 01:44 sushichef wrote:Recap of the thread for anyone who's just checking in.OP asks where all the terrans have gone. A large number of terrans from silver to high-masters reply saying they've stopped playing, and a lot of them cite TvP for the reason they don't play the game anymore. The consensus is the match up is unforgiving, volatile, and frustrating due to terran's margin of error being razor-slim whereas protoss can make many mistakes and still win. Several high-masters random players say the same things, as do a couple of pros. You would think this answers the question: terrans are quitting 1v1s because it's not fun, mainly due to one matchup.Yet there's a small number of people in this thread, mainly but not all protoss players, that keep derailing it towards a balance discussion at the pro level, and keep telling terrans to get better, w/o addressing many of the concerns, often cherry-picking small inaccuracies to focus on, and often employing sarcasm and over-exaggeration to make fun of terrans posting in this thread. Type|Naruto is a terran pro player that's doing a huge disservice to all casual terran players by repeatedly making posts along the lines of "stop caring about balance, practice more and get better". A fine mindset for a pro, but completely missing the point of this thread. (Though whether he truly means it is questionable, as I've just seen him cry imbalance in a TvZ game on his stream, oh the irony.) + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s6V2D.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EWtWz.jpg) translation is along the lines of: hope Blizzard realize how imba this combo is like ghosts; ok you must've won because you're 1000x better than me -- i.e. a similar sentiment to what many casual terrans have expressed in this thread in regards to TvP (I must outplay my protoss opponent to win - they don't), only to get told by Naruto to stop complaining and practice more. This is NOT a balance discussion thread, even though there have been suggestions on balance changes that would make TvP a more fun matchup to play AND watch, so please, if you're a protoss player do not talk about pro-level balance, do not tell us to "get better" and do not try to argue against the fact that hundreds of terran players have said the quit playing because of TvP. If you're a terran player and you've stopped playing 1v1s or maybe play less than you used to, please post your win % in you matchups so that we have more data, as well as any info on how you feel about the various MUs and the game in general. EDIT: added translation. Wow... Good post, Choking on the irony from naruto bahahahah. 30-40% TvP Winrate since summer. Broke the damn game. Well, I was high masters on EU and kinda stopped playing after one break when I faced 23 protosses of 30 games I played. Games were really frustrating and damn hard. After like 10 TvP in a row I started to do modified 1/1/1 (4/1/2 Mass Marine with banshees timing when raven has two PDD) and had some really great success because all of them were expecting tanks and I kept sniping observers lol. Smart protoss players learned how to deal with it and match-up became way too much for me lol... Because like 70% of my games were TvP (and straight up TvP win ratio is like 30% or less) I just simply stopped laddering. I don't see the point to play games which are so frustrating and demanding to play (at least for me). All I do now is hit Top 8 in my shitty division before season ends :D .
Are you Gomas... by any chance?
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On March 22 2012 03:30 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:17 Plansix wrote:
Well if we are going to make insane, entitled request; how about you just get better at the game and save Blizzard the development cost of balancing it for your skill level? Seriously, I really think that money could be better spent, like on tacos for the balance team. Or better yet, icecream.
Seriously, are you kidding. The professionals have no issues with balance, but you do. So the game should be changed for you because you don't want to put in the effort to get better? Sarcasm, over-exaggeration, poking fun at terran posters; all mentioned in my summary above. Go read what dde just posted. Do you consider him good enough for you to accept his opinion on the subject of this thread, or will you keep arguing about balance and keep telling casual gamers to get as good as the pros? Zealot HT archon has a ridiculously low skill ceiling and should be the #1 thing for Blizzard to address. It's easy enough to do as well without affecting pro play much but making it much more manageable for casual terrans to deal with.
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg.
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On March 22 2012 03:06 Cyclone999 wrote:I still find it funny how some Protoss players are trying to defend their race as if they needed to do some godly micro to win an engagement. Honestly, Protoss, just please, admit that your armies are so much easier to control than Terran armies (this is about the actual engagement, not the state of macro/expansion management/whatever). Moving zealots in front of your army does not count as "micro". Early on, sure, we have it a lot easier, but it's hard to take advantage of the game early-on when 6 sentries can hold your ramp infinitely. For my TvPs, it's usually me spending 100 extra APM in double drops to force the Protoss to spend 20 more APM to defend it with warp-ins, or me winning three (3!) deathball engagements, but can never take advantage of that because a round of chargelots is warped in and holds off what's left of my army, where when I lose a battle I lose the game because one round of zealot warpins instantly gives them an extra 1,500 HP (10 zealots) in which my reinforcements can't deal with fast enough for you to either kill me OR double expand/whatever Show nested quote +all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better With all due respect, I did do this, with my best matchup being PvT. I got up to high diamond with Protoss, then switched to Terran (still high diamond now) because (1) PvP was horrible and (2) I felt guilty winning PvTs (honest, that's what I thought back then). I switched to Terran because I wanted to try my hand at splitting banelings, dodging storms, doing double drops, just like the pro players (this was right before Sad Zealots). I couldn't find a Protoss player that demonstrated the same amount of skill as a Terran player back then, in multitasking and in army control. With this I made my decision to switch to Terran because I felt, at least back then, it would be cooler to feel good when I win due to superior multitasking. When I played Protoss you basically do the same things every matchup (defend, do some "early map presence" and show off your "amazing forcefields", get third base, get deathball, win/lose) and that was just boring.
I think you're doing drops wrong. First off, with good positioning (like behind the mineral line), 8 marines/ 6 marines and a marauder can take out a good handful of zealots-- I personally am always surprised at how long Terran drops take to get cleaned up sometimes because of medivac support. Second off, your priority should be distracting the Protoss from the drop, not the other way around. What I do from the T side is have my medivac set to drop behind the mineral line. When its almost there, I use my army and engage his lightly, then we dance our armies together to distract him while my drop does damage. My philosophy is basically the same playing as P, though I feel getting the warp prism in place, in position, warping in and then setting my units to attack workers is more APM intensive.
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To be honest, Protoss was ridiculously easy in lower level broodwar, and Terran was virtually impossible to get good outside of cheese if you were at a low level.
Having said that, I don't think having disproportionate difficulties in matchups is good for the development of lower level players at all. I find it hard to believe that Protoss players at lower levels think that Terran doesn't have to outplay Protoss to win a macro game.
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On March 22 2012 03:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:06 Cyclone999 wrote:I still find it funny how some Protoss players are trying to defend their race as if they needed to do some godly micro to win an engagement. Honestly, Protoss, just please, admit that your armies are so much easier to control than Terran armies (this is about the actual engagement, not the state of macro/expansion management/whatever). Moving zealots in front of your army does not count as "micro". Early on, sure, we have it a lot easier, but it's hard to take advantage of the game early-on when 6 sentries can hold your ramp infinitely. For my TvPs, it's usually me spending 100 extra APM in double drops to force the Protoss to spend 20 more APM to defend it with warp-ins, or me winning three (3!) deathball engagements, but can never take advantage of that because a round of chargelots is warped in and holds off what's left of my army, where when I lose a battle I lose the game because one round of zealot warpins instantly gives them an extra 1,500 HP (10 zealots) in which my reinforcements can't deal with fast enough for you to either kill me OR double expand/whatever all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better With all due respect, I did do this, with my best matchup being PvT. I got up to high diamond with Protoss, then switched to Terran (still high diamond now) because (1) PvP was horrible and (2) I felt guilty winning PvTs (honest, that's what I thought back then). I switched to Terran because I wanted to try my hand at splitting banelings, dodging storms, doing double drops, just like the pro players (this was right before Sad Zealots). I couldn't find a Protoss player that demonstrated the same amount of skill as a Terran player back then, in multitasking and in army control. With this I made my decision to switch to Terran because I felt, at least back then, it would be cooler to feel good when I win due to superior multitasking. When I played Protoss you basically do the same things every matchup (defend, do some "early map presence" and show off your "amazing forcefields", get third base, get deathball, win/lose) and that was just boring. I think you're doing drops wrong. First off, with good positioning (like behind the mineral line), 8 marines/ 6 marines and a marauder can take out a good handful of zealots-- I personally am always surprised at how long Terran drops take to get cleaned up sometimes because of medivac support. Second off, your priority should be distracting the Protoss from the drop, not the other way around. What I do from the T side is have my medivac set to drop behind the mineral line. When its almost there, I use my army and engage his lightly, then we dance our armies together to distract him while my drop does damage. My philosophy is basically the same playing as P, though I feel getting the warp prism in place, in position, warping in and then setting my units to attack workers is more APM intensive.
I used to do the same, but minimap awareness has grown in P, and they often have a few stalkers in the main. So, when they see the medivac fly in, they double-click with stalkers, warp in zealots underneath and go back to do their thing. Anything that drops out of that medivac will die on landing. Drops really only work if you land them in the fog of war or after engaging with your main army and hoping that the P won't look at the minimap in the mayhem of battle. The latter is called a hope based strategy.
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Honestly the game right now is probably balanced the best it's been since it's been around at the pro level. There's certainly places that can be improved upon as far as that is concerned but I think most people would agree that at the top of the skill level, the game is pretty balanced.
The real problem comes from the lower level leagues, where micro mistakes will generally hurt terran more than protoss. Missing an EMP before storms go off (which is very easy to do at that skill level) can really just demolish your army, where as getting hit by emps as a protoss is generally not as critical. The terran player also usually needs to be active on the map, applying pressure, and that puts a strain on multi-tasking abilities at that lower level as well. It's not even that unit A needs to be nerfed or anything like that, it's that the playstyle of the match up at lower levels of skill tends to favor protoss because their goal is to just turtle and macro, which generally is easier than doing drops and harassing.
There's probably a million ways to fix this issue, but they need to be carefully done. I don't have enough insight on the match up (since I play Zerg mainly) to even think about suggestions, but I do think it's pretty easy to see (especially looking at the win % by league, thats the big teller) that terrans in lower leagues struggle against protoss, where the higher leagues are generally more balanced.
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On March 22 2012 03:43 Plansix wrote:
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg.
Ok clear, a semi-pro terran player who also got into GM with protoss whose opinion is different from yours is not an authority for you. But the semi-pro protoss player whose views are similar to yours is authoritative enough. What about Beastyqt who's posted here too?
Your post above is full of presumptions. I do practice. I know I don't need to be anywhere close to MMA's level. I don't throw my hands up in the air and pray. I'm saying what I see: skill ceiling from platinum to mid-masters (where I am now) is much lower for protoss players than for terrans. I'm not the only one saying that, and it's one of the main reasons terrans are quitting 1v1s. How many times does this need to be repeated? Read the bloody thread title.
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How? Make protoss harder, that's how.
Pros are capable of adapting to a harder game, if charge wasn't autocasted and you had to micro zealots or something like that it shouldn't affect pros at all (as long as they're good and if they aren't they deserve to lose anyway), but you'll have better balance for noob players (masters to mid GM).
you realize that auto cast is actually worse then manual cast and gives the terran a chance to exploit that if the protoss does not micro his units he will lose them very quickly due to kiting.
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On March 22 2012 03:53 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:43 Plansix wrote:
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg. Ok clear, a semi-pro terran player who also got into GM with protoss whose opinion is different from yours is not an authority for you. But the semi-pro protoss player whose views are similar to yours is authoritative enough. What about Beastyqt who's posted here too? Your post above is full of presumptions. I do practice. I know I don't need to be anywhere close to MMA's level. I don't throw my hands up in the air and pray. I'm saying what I see: skill ceiling from platinum to mid-masters (where I am now) is much lower for protoss players than for terrans. I'm not the only one saying that, and it's one of the main reasons terrans are quitting 1v1s. How many times does this need to be repeated? Read the bloody thread title.
I don't think you'll ever manage to make him concede anything at this discussion. If you check his posts, you'll see he has been denying every argument from anyone. If MC himself came here telling this to him, he would deny. It's pointless.
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On March 22 2012 03:17 dde wrote:
I did hit GM rank 6 with my protoss a couple seasons ago and i currently have 88 percent winningrate as terran and always got placed top 7 GM as terran except the 1 season that i laddered with protoss. The game is pretty well balanced but its true protoss requires almost no multitasking skill compare to terran its all about decision making and knowing what to chronoboost. Protoss is generally strong early and really late game while terran pretty much have map control in mid to early late game.
You cant say the game is balanced if race X has to play half has good the race Y to win.
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On March 21 2012 10:48 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 21 2012 10:17 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 10:14 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2012 10:00 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 09:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 21 2012 09:46 Zarahtra wrote:On March 21 2012 08:14 Gimix wrote:On March 21 2012 07:41 Scila wrote:
The game is in a pretty poor state of balance right now, and it surprises me that so many people think that just because there's roughly 50% win ratios in every match up, everything is fine. They don't look at the fact that different races have DRASTICALLY different win % at different stages of the game, and that there are glaring problems with almost every race.
Terran has a high win ratio against zerg in the early and mid game, while in the late game the win % falls off dramatically. Terran has NO answer to Broodlord/infestor and even worse, no answer to switching between Blord/ Ultra. Even with pre-nerf ghosts, it was very difficult to deal with Infestor/T3 unless you had amazing army control like Thorzain.
Similarly in TvP, Terran has the upper hand in the mid game, but terran win ratios fall off dramatically in the late game (past 15 mins or so). Terran has NO answer to Colossus/HT/gateway deathball. Unless you have godly micro (like Korean Terrans) to come out SIGNIFICANTLY ahead after a 200/200 fight, you will probably lose. Even the Koreans are having trouble doing this now.
Then there's the fact that Terran HAS TO be played aggressive/harass-oriented versus P and Z, where as P and Z can play aggressive OR passive, which is a massive design flaw.
Furthermore, for Protoss, the only way to deal with Blord/Infestor is a gimmick that was never intended by Blizzard. Imagine if there was no Vortex...Protoss would be in the same boat as Terran is right now as soon as they reached the late game versus Zerg.
Protoss is also currently being rewarded for a very passive style of play in both matchups, but more so PvT, where they can quite safely get to 3/3 upgrades and a strong deathball.
With Zerg, the biggest issue imo is the power of Infestor/Broodlord as mentioned above, which is problematic in both TvZ and PvZ.
What Blizzard has been doing for the past few months with their "balance" patches is cover up the actual core problems and tweak things that give them those nice 50% numbers that people like. I still love to watch this game played at the highest level, but these glaring problems made it difficult to enjoy. This sums up everything pretty well. The game is very unbalanced, but everything has become so normal we don't notice it anymore. That said, a large number of problems could be fixed with 2 very simple implementations 1. Fungal should not be a snare AND do massive damage. One or the either. Given how the snare combos well with other zerg abilites I feel that should be kept and the damage greatly reduced. 2. Storm damage needs to be decreased. This is the primary problem in TvP. Essentially, a game long advantage is lost in 2 seconds because you failed to emp one of your opponents HTs. That this is even possible means TvP is essentially a pointless matchup until one final engagement.Warpin is also a fairly broken mechanic in conjuction with warp prisms. Unlike any other race's dropping mechanic, the Protoss does not need to 'sacrifice' his standing army for the potential to drop. All he needs to do is GET THE WARPPRISM INTO YOUR BASE. That's it. If this happens lategame TvP as you engage the main protoss army you lose. End of story. There is no answer to 30 zealots warping instantly into your production line even if you decimate the protoss army. I'm a terran. While I agree with both the guy you quote aswell as most of what you said, the bolded part can be turned around. If you can get all the HTs emped, the toss is screwed, which is just as stupid imo. The ghost/ht war is imo to unforgiving, bio melts to much against storms and toss melts to much without aoe/ffs. I just wish toss and zerg was more microable, because no matter how hard terran has it now, if terran keeps being so much more microable(and with it, rewards skill increase more), korean terrans will just keep getting better and better, resulting in more nerfs for the terran race, to balance the top(by this I don't mean that korean zerg and toss players are worse, just that they can't utilize their apm/micro and push themselves to the same extend as their terran counterparts).. Wait wait... You failed an emp, so instead of you being faulted for the mistake, you want the storm to be nerfed? Geeze, I can't say I agree with that kind of logic. Edit: For the spoilered quote my bad Terran pro's are switching races, Protoss dominating terrans in most recent tournaments, Win ratios dropping dramatically the further the game goes on. Terran the least represented and most APM / Micro / Multi tasking intensive race. Look at my previous posts, look at the pro terrans posts. Look at the guy under me.. JUST look. You will see that the majority of the time when you reach that sweet death ball you can count your free win and mark it as "skill" under your belt. Its a master plan by Blizzard to make all terrans switch to D3. Blizzard needs to boost those numbers somehow and terrans are the way they are going to do it. Once there are no Pro terrans to look up too and no hope, that is when they release Heart of the Swarm, filled with terran buffs to pull them right back in. Its good you are seeing this now and getting out while you can. I don't know if you've actually been reading my posts. I'm a random player. I don't think he's been reading any posts.. I don't think you do either. Every argument I brought to you you simply wrote off as bullshit. "PROTOSS OP" without even trying.
You haven't brought a single argument to this thread. All you've said is that playing Terran properly requires much more mechanical skill than Protoss (agreeing with me). You've said you think that Terrans are having mental blocks in the matchup. You've said that you use a 30 ghost strategy but won't post a replay or a build order. You said that Happy used this build a lot to which Beastyqt replied that you are wrong, since the ghost nerf. You haven't posted any numbers from your own laddering experience. No offense, I've acknowledged that you're a decent player but you've brought essentially nothing beyond your opinions. Beastyqt and Yosho have both provided concrete numbers from their own high level experiences to highlight their points. Like I said, provide us a replay of this fabled 30 ghost TvP miracle build and I'll never utter "Protoss" and "OP" in the same sentence again.
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On March 22 2012 04:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 10:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 21 2012 10:17 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 10:14 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2012 10:00 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 09:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 21 2012 09:46 Zarahtra wrote:On March 21 2012 08:14 Gimix wrote:On March 21 2012 07:41 Scila wrote:
The game is in a pretty poor state of balance right now, and it surprises me that so many people think that just because there's roughly 50% win ratios in every match up, everything is fine. They don't look at the fact that different races have DRASTICALLY different win % at different stages of the game, and that there are glaring problems with almost every race.
Terran has a high win ratio against zerg in the early and mid game, while in the late game the win % falls off dramatically. Terran has NO answer to Broodlord/infestor and even worse, no answer to switching between Blord/ Ultra. Even with pre-nerf ghosts, it was very difficult to deal with Infestor/T3 unless you had amazing army control like Thorzain.
Similarly in TvP, Terran has the upper hand in the mid game, but terran win ratios fall off dramatically in the late game (past 15 mins or so). Terran has NO answer to Colossus/HT/gateway deathball. Unless you have godly micro (like Korean Terrans) to come out SIGNIFICANTLY ahead after a 200/200 fight, you will probably lose. Even the Koreans are having trouble doing this now.
Then there's the fact that Terran HAS TO be played aggressive/harass-oriented versus P and Z, where as P and Z can play aggressive OR passive, which is a massive design flaw.
Furthermore, for Protoss, the only way to deal with Blord/Infestor is a gimmick that was never intended by Blizzard. Imagine if there was no Vortex...Protoss would be in the same boat as Terran is right now as soon as they reached the late game versus Zerg.
Protoss is also currently being rewarded for a very passive style of play in both matchups, but more so PvT, where they can quite safely get to 3/3 upgrades and a strong deathball.
With Zerg, the biggest issue imo is the power of Infestor/Broodlord as mentioned above, which is problematic in both TvZ and PvZ.
What Blizzard has been doing for the past few months with their "balance" patches is cover up the actual core problems and tweak things that give them those nice 50% numbers that people like. I still love to watch this game played at the highest level, but these glaring problems made it difficult to enjoy. This sums up everything pretty well. The game is very unbalanced, but everything has become so normal we don't notice it anymore. That said, a large number of problems could be fixed with 2 very simple implementations 1. Fungal should not be a snare AND do massive damage. One or the either. Given how the snare combos well with other zerg abilites I feel that should be kept and the damage greatly reduced. 2. Storm damage needs to be decreased. This is the primary problem in TvP. Essentially, a game long advantage is lost in 2 seconds because you failed to emp one of your opponents HTs. That this is even possible means TvP is essentially a pointless matchup until one final engagement.Warpin is also a fairly broken mechanic in conjuction with warp prisms. Unlike any other race's dropping mechanic, the Protoss does not need to 'sacrifice' his standing army for the potential to drop. All he needs to do is GET THE WARPPRISM INTO YOUR BASE. That's it. If this happens lategame TvP as you engage the main protoss army you lose. End of story. There is no answer to 30 zealots warping instantly into your production line even if you decimate the protoss army. I'm a terran. While I agree with both the guy you quote aswell as most of what you said, the bolded part can be turned around. If you can get all the HTs emped, the toss is screwed, which is just as stupid imo. The ghost/ht war is imo to unforgiving, bio melts to much against storms and toss melts to much without aoe/ffs. I just wish toss and zerg was more microable, because no matter how hard terran has it now, if terran keeps being so much more microable(and with it, rewards skill increase more), korean terrans will just keep getting better and better, resulting in more nerfs for the terran race, to balance the top(by this I don't mean that korean zerg and toss players are worse, just that they can't utilize their apm/micro and push themselves to the same extend as their terran counterparts).. Wait wait... You failed an emp, so instead of you being faulted for the mistake, you want the storm to be nerfed? Geeze, I can't say I agree with that kind of logic. Edit: For the spoilered quote my bad Terran pro's are switching races, Protoss dominating terrans in most recent tournaments, Win ratios dropping dramatically the further the game goes on. Terran the least represented and most APM / Micro / Multi tasking intensive race. Look at my previous posts, look at the pro terrans posts. Look at the guy under me.. JUST look. You will see that the majority of the time when you reach that sweet death ball you can count your free win and mark it as "skill" under your belt. Its a master plan by Blizzard to make all terrans switch to D3. Blizzard needs to boost those numbers somehow and terrans are the way they are going to do it. Once there are no Pro terrans to look up too and no hope, that is when they release Heart of the Swarm, filled with terran buffs to pull them right back in. Its good you are seeing this now and getting out while you can. I don't know if you've actually been reading my posts. I'm a random player. I don't think he's been reading any posts.. I don't think you do either. Every argument I brought to you you simply wrote off as bullshit. "PROTOSS OP" without even trying. You haven't brought a single argument to this thread. All you've said is that playing Terran properly requires much more mechanical skill than Protoss (agreeing with me). You've said you think that Terrans are having mental blocks in the matchup. You've said that you use a 30 ghost strategy but won't post a replay or a build order. You said that Happy used this build a lot to which Beastyqt replied that you are wrong, since the ghost nerf. You haven't posted any numbers from your own laddering experience. No offense, I've acknowledged that you're a decent player but you've brought essentially nothing beyond your opinions. Beastyqt and Yosho have both provided concrete numbers from their own high level experiences to highlight their points. Like I said, provide us a replay of this fabled 30 ghost TvP miracle build and I'll never utter "Protoss" and "OP" in the same sentence again.
Hey sushichef, could you please correct your "summary" so that it also says a bunch of Terrans keep of turning this thread into a balance discussion 
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This thread title reminds me of some old song idk much about Where have all the cowboys gone? Would be nice to have a Terran parody of it.
On a more important note. Do you think there will be any balance changes before HOTS? The only thing that frustrates me is some of Terran units are pretty useless. I don't like useless units in the game for any race. I'm sure someone will post their theorycraft but I guess Blizzard wants to just remove some of them. Reaper, Battlecruiser, Raven, Carrier I wish were tweaked. I don't care about your theories just feel they should be reworked. I mean yeah Raven's are used for cheesey builds once in awhile but it's just dumb to have pretty much useless units in the game. That was probably the biggest complaint in BW.
I also think Blizzard patches too much. Imagine what they would have done when Boxer/Oov sat on the throne. Or the dark era of IPXZerg. When Bisu showed how to dominate Zerg. Or when Flash was born.
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On March 22 2012 03:58 freetgy wrote:
you realize that auto cast is actually worse then manual cast and gives the terran a chance to exploit that if the protoss does not micro his units he will lose them very quickly due to kiting.
Then it should be fine if it was removed, right ?
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On March 22 2012 01:44 sushichef wrote:Recap of the thread for anyone who's just checking in.OP asks where all the terrans have gone. A large number of terrans from silver to high-masters reply saying they've stopped playing, and a lot of them cite TvP for the reason they don't play the game anymore. The consensus is the match up is unforgiving, volatile, and frustrating due to terran's margin of error being razor-slim whereas protoss can make many mistakes and still win. Several high-masters random players say the same things, as do a couple of pros. You would think this answers the question: terrans are quitting 1v1s because it's not fun, mainly due to one matchup.Yet there's a small number of people in this thread, mainly but not all protoss players, that keep derailing it towards a balance discussion at the pro level, and keep telling terrans to get better, w/o addressing many of the concerns, often cherry-picking small inaccuracies to focus on, and often employing sarcasm and over-exaggeration to make fun of terrans posting in this thread. Type|Naruto is a terran pro player that's doing a huge disservice to all casual terran players by repeatedly making posts along the lines of "stop caring about balance, practice more and get better". A fine mindset for a pro, but completely missing the point of this thread. (Though whether he truly means it is questionable, as I've just seen him cry imbalance in a TvZ game on his stream, oh the irony.) + Show Spoiler +translation is along the lines of: hope Blizzard realize how imba this combo is like ghosts; ok you must've won because you're 1000x better than me -- i.e. a similar sentiment to what many casual terrans have expressed in this thread in regards to TvP (I must outplay my protoss opponent to win - they don't), only to get told by Naruto to stop complaining and practice more. This is NOT a balance discussion thread, even though there have been suggestions on balance changes that would make TvP a more fun matchup to play AND watch, so please, if you're a protoss player do not talk about pro-level balance, do not tell us to "get better" and do not try to argue against the fact that hundreds of terran players have said the quit playing because of TvP. If you're a terran player and you've stopped playing 1v1s or maybe play less than you used to, please post your win % in you matchups so that we have more data, as well as any info on how you feel about the various MUs and the game in general. EDIT: added translation.
Big J, stop derailing the thread. He already said it. And you are one of the worst posters here.
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On March 22 2012 04:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:03 SupLilSon wrote:On March 21 2012 10:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 21 2012 10:17 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 10:14 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2012 10:00 Yosho wrote:On March 21 2012 09:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 21 2012 09:46 Zarahtra wrote:On March 21 2012 08:14 Gimix wrote:
[quote]
This sums up everything pretty well. The game is very unbalanced, but everything has become so normal we don't notice it anymore.
That said, a large number of problems could be fixed with 2 very simple implementations
1. Fungal should not be a snare AND do massive damage. One or the either. Given how the snare combos well with other zerg abilites I feel that should be kept and the damage greatly reduced.
2. Storm damage needs to be decreased. This is the primary problem in TvP. Essentially, a game long advantage is lost in 2 seconds because you failed to emp one of your opponents HTs. That this is even possible means TvP is essentially a pointless matchup until one final engagement.
Warpin is also a fairly broken mechanic in conjuction with warp prisms. Unlike any other race's dropping mechanic, the Protoss does not need to 'sacrifice' his standing army for the potential to drop. All he needs to do is GET THE WARPPRISM INTO YOUR BASE. That's it. If this happens lategame TvP as you engage the main protoss army you lose. End of story. There is no answer to 30 zealots warping instantly into your production line even if you decimate the protoss army.
I'm a terran. While I agree with both the guy you quote aswell as most of what you said, the bolded part can be turned around. If you can get all the HTs emped, the toss is screwed, which is just as stupid imo. The ghost/ht war is imo to unforgiving, bio melts to much against storms and toss melts to much without aoe/ffs. I just wish toss and zerg was more microable, because no matter how hard terran has it now, if terran keeps being so much more microable(and with it, rewards skill increase more), korean terrans will just keep getting better and better, resulting in more nerfs for the terran race, to balance the top(by this I don't mean that korean zerg and toss players are worse, just that they can't utilize their apm/micro and push themselves to the same extend as their terran counterparts).. Wait wait... You failed an emp, so instead of you being faulted for the mistake, you want the storm to be nerfed? Geeze, I can't say I agree with that kind of logic. Edit: For the spoilered quote my bad Terran pro's are switching races, Protoss dominating terrans in most recent tournaments, Win ratios dropping dramatically the further the game goes on. Terran the least represented and most APM / Micro / Multi tasking intensive race. Look at my previous posts, look at the pro terrans posts. Look at the guy under me.. JUST look. You will see that the majority of the time when you reach that sweet death ball you can count your free win and mark it as "skill" under your belt. Its a master plan by Blizzard to make all terrans switch to D3. Blizzard needs to boost those numbers somehow and terrans are the way they are going to do it. Once there are no Pro terrans to look up too and no hope, that is when they release Heart of the Swarm, filled with terran buffs to pull them right back in. Its good you are seeing this now and getting out while you can. I don't know if you've actually been reading my posts. I'm a random player. I don't think he's been reading any posts.. I don't think you do either. Every argument I brought to you you simply wrote off as bullshit. "PROTOSS OP" without even trying. You haven't brought a single argument to this thread. All you've said is that playing Terran properly requires much more mechanical skill than Protoss (agreeing with me). You've said you think that Terrans are having mental blocks in the matchup. You've said that you use a 30 ghost strategy but won't post a replay or a build order. You said that Happy used this build a lot to which Beastyqt replied that you are wrong, since the ghost nerf. You haven't posted any numbers from your own laddering experience. No offense, I've acknowledged that you're a decent player but you've brought essentially nothing beyond your opinions. Beastyqt and Yosho have both provided concrete numbers from their own high level experiences to highlight their points. Like I said, provide us a replay of this fabled 30 ghost TvP miracle build and I'll never utter "Protoss" and "OP" in the same sentence again. Hey sushichef, could you please correct your "summary" so that it also says a bunch of Terrans keep of turning this thread into a balance discussion
Where in my post do I complain at all about balance -.- NarutO is accusing me of not reading posts and I'm simply showing him that I have in fact read every single one of his posts. But until he provides something beyond his opinion, like Yosho and Beasty both did, I can't regard his statements with the same weight as theirs. Especially since Beasty, Happy's Teammate, said that his statements regarding Happy's TvP were either outdated or wrong.
EDIT: I've even been WATCHING NatuOs stream over the past few days when I see it on because I want to see his 30 Ghost TvP but I have yet to see him whip it out.
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On March 22 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:53 sushichef wrote:On March 22 2012 03:43 Plansix wrote:
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg. Ok clear, a semi-pro terran player who also got into GM with protoss whose opinion is different from yours is not an authority for you. But the semi-pro protoss player whose views are similar to yours is authoritative enough. What about Beastyqt who's posted here too? Your post above is full of presumptions. I do practice. I know I don't need to be anywhere close to MMA's level. I don't throw my hands up in the air and pray. I'm saying what I see: skill ceiling from platinum to mid-masters (where I am now) is much lower for protoss players than for terrans. I'm not the only one saying that, and it's one of the main reasons terrans are quitting 1v1s. How many times does this need to be repeated? Read the bloody thread title. I don't think you'll ever manage to make him concede anything at this discussion. If you check his posts, you'll see he has been denying every argument from anyone. If MC himself came here telling this to him, he would deny. It's pointless.
I am literally the exact skill level you referance. I don't know why you expect me to say that I am have far less skill that others simply because I play protoss. I have played this game over a year and you expect me to say that I am worse that my terran opponents? I have said in my previous posts, which were mostly ignored, that terran does have some issues late game. I have said in other posts that the ghost was over nerfted for zerg and terrans do lack a clear late game transition/unit mix against protoss. I even asked questions about the late game terran army and what a terran should focus on to try to draw the discussion in that direction.
I will never deny that a specific group of players is having a rough time. But I will alway argue against the idea that their opponents are less skilled than they are.
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we are all waiting for Flash to save us
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On March 22 2012 04:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 22 2012 03:53 sushichef wrote:On March 22 2012 03:43 Plansix wrote:
I don't, for a matter of fact. I don't take Idra seriously about protoss balance either. I also If you don't practice to be better at the game, why play? No ones says you have to become MMA to beat a masters protoss. It just might require more effort than you are putting in right now. I was getting crushed by zerg until I tightened up my openings and got better at my late game control. I didn't throw my hands up in the air and pray make the game harder for zerg. Ok clear, a semi-pro terran player who also got into GM with protoss whose opinion is different from yours is not an authority for you. But the semi-pro protoss player whose views are similar to yours is authoritative enough. What about Beastyqt who's posted here too? Your post above is full of presumptions. I do practice. I know I don't need to be anywhere close to MMA's level. I don't throw my hands up in the air and pray. I'm saying what I see: skill ceiling from platinum to mid-masters (where I am now) is much lower for protoss players than for terrans. I'm not the only one saying that, and it's one of the main reasons terrans are quitting 1v1s. How many times does this need to be repeated? Read the bloody thread title. I don't think you'll ever manage to make him concede anything at this discussion. If you check his posts, you'll see he has been denying every argument from anyone. If MC himself came here telling this to him, he would deny. It's pointless. I am literally the exact skill level you referance. I don't know why you expect me to say that I am have far less skill that others simply because I play protoss. I have played this game over a year and you expect me to say that I am worse that my terran opponents? I have said in my previous posts, which were mostly ignored, that terran does have some issues late game. I have said in other posts that the ghost was over nerfted for zerg and terrans do lack a clear late game transition/unit mix against protoss. I even asked questions about the late game terran army and what a terran should focus on to try to draw the discussion in that direction. I will never deny that a specific group of players is having a rough time. But I will alway argue against the idea that their opponents are less skilled than they are.
Ok. Let me just ask you one thing then: what's your take on why most terrans are having a hard time in TvP in the plat-master range, while most protoss players have a nice PvT winning rate at the same range?
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EPT
