|
Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
I believe a word "nigger" is not that strong, hateful word that should get people banned. It's a word that is frequently used in movies with 18+ rating, if orb marked his stream as mature/explicit language, then as a law student I believe he didn't break any rules. Streaming his personal content in a personal ladder game is a personal business of his and the viewers that deliberately choose to watch his personal stream. Of course Teamliquid got this nicely covered in "Terms Of Use" where they say that they can remove any content for any reason and Orb's stream is/was a part of TeamLiquid's content, but personally I feel a little bit communism (now I get banned for this) from TeamLiquid's side for interfering so much in their users freedom. I myself saw many comments here that were NOT vulgar but that got their posters banned. Personally I think the line between keeping things mannered and censuring like in soviet Russia is sometimes broken here. Ladder is ladder and it belongs to Blizzard's jurisdiction, not 3rd party TeamLiquid's one.
Another thing is, what if Orb and/or his opponent were actually black? What if they are friends and just trolling themselves? Usualy people tolerate when two african-americans call themselves "nigger", how do you know they aren't black?
And another thing, I myself sometimes flame and I got opinions from many (actually MOST of the) viewers that they watch my stream MOSTLY because it's funny when and how I flame people. They feel amuzed by my semi-fake/semi-real rage. One can say I entertain people through funny flaming and insulting punch lines... Will I get banned too? Would I get banned even if 100 people signed under my stream that they like my raging?
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On March 09 2012 19:14 Markwerf wrote:
Why always these overreactions to the word 'nigger', i don't get it.
Your'e not from the US, sorry but that's the main reason you don't get it.
|
I read this up until the paragraph where you refuse to spell out the word "nigger" when having a serious discussion about it. If you don't have enough of a backbone to type out the word in order to have an honest discussion, then you have no right to discuss it. You can't talk about it without talking about it. You say it's too offensive to even talk about... really? Is that true? Do your hands shake when you try to type the word without the hyphens replacing the letters "igger?" Do you really find it so offensive that you can't even talk it, even to say how wrong it is to use generally? Because I seriously doubt that. When I got my humanities degree, we spoke openly about words that people actually use in society and which we've all heard, including "nigger" when appropriate in order to discuss its usage.
Writing n----- is a cop out, especially since you claim that "nigga" is somehow a different word. Ask any black person exactly what "nigga" means to them. I promise you that "nigga" is just "nigger" pronounced differently, you don't understand black subculture as well as you think you do if you're pretending otherwise. I think you know that full and well (I mean shit, I would hope, you're not an obtuse guy), but again, you need to have the intellectual integrity to admit that, and apply your standards equally. If nigger literally cannot be said or typed in your presence, then you need to say the same of "nigga."
Here's the bottom line: if you admit that "nigga" is the same as "nigger" then you become obligated to mouth off to the 200 lb. black dude who's a stranger to you when he says "nigga," the same way you would to one of your white friends if he said "nigger" in some joke. I think that you're trying to relieve your cognitive dissonance with mental acrobatics and semantics and I have no respect for that. Seen it too many times before to be nothing but frank about this.
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Jesus Christ, the west or United States or im not even sure really overreacts this shit with the n word. I am not sure i understand it. I know that it is offensive but its just drop of water in the sea. Why aren't you overreacting about every possible offensive remark. What is so special about racism, i just dont get it. It's just one of many imbecile human behaviour ...
|
A while ago Hotbid asked Sheth if he thought it would be okay to stop and kill someone if you could be sure they were going to commit a serious crime. Seeing as this is impossible, Sheth gave a reasonable answer. Before convicting someone, they need to commit the crime as there is no way for us to be certain that they will do it. I feel like that is similar to this situation. If you asked me if Orb was a stable or considerate person, I would say no without hesitation. He seems like an angry disrespectful person from what I've experienced. The thing is we all make mistakes, we learn from these mistakes and we become better people because of it. Orb has made mistakes in his past and now it's the present. Why is he being punished because of his past? He cannot change the past but he can try and make up for it in the future. If he did something like this while representing EG I could understand the reasoning entirely, but he wasn't.
In my personal opinion EG made the biggest mistake by hiring someone they clearly didn't want representing them. They should have done the research before hand and if they did and didn't find anything of the sort then I can't see why they would now fire him after personal information has risen up. I agree that if you are popular among the SC2 community that you do bare the responsibility of being a good role model. If I had to out someone for being a bad role model it would be idrA, not Orb. You fire Orb!? Seriously!?
Anyways, those are my thoughts on this whole situation. Please note that I do have biases against idrA and towards Orb and that could be affecting my judgement, however, regardless of personal bias, I do strongly believe that there is a large amount of truth to what I am stating here. I feel that there are many things in life that we don't have direct control over. If I spend time trying to better myself as a person and I'm fired because I once had a racist state of mind I wouldn't be thrilled.
I get that it's your decision and that it's not an easy one to make. I understand it, but I don't think it's the right choice seeing as he was not representing the organization at the time.
|
On March 09 2012 13:09 -_- wrote:
Only your ignorance makes you proud to be a Starcraft Community member today, Alex. Most, and perhaps nearly all, of the complaints you received were from pitiful people who want to create some entertainment at Orb's expense. A few others were probably from those slugs who masturbate in self-righteousness and take every opportunity to speak out about a cause because it gets them off. Finally, one or two were likely sincere.
You're probably proud of your post. You think it makes you sound smart and enlightened (though you'd rather die than admit it). Yeesh it doesn't. all due respect, I'm sneering.
Although I'm more just sad than sneering, I resonate with these sentiments.
|
Wow. After realizing that long winded posts about this just get ignored in the mass anyway I am damn happy that some posts (the 4 above mine) still make sense.
Words are tools.
Tools are neither good nor bad.
In fact I'd go as far as saying that everyone who wants to ban the usage of certain words completely because of "political correctness" makes it so that they keep their racist, homophobic or whatever meaning.
Edit: FML, still moving too fast. Meant the posts from Fleshcut till Markwerf on the last page.
Edit 2: I wonder why no one that I saw brought in that some people consider calling / being called "a nigger" in a certain context a compliment. =P
|
Canada5052 Posts
On March 09 2012 19:11 OPL3SA2 wrote:
The real problem as orb stated in his apology, is that his use of the word n----r quote unquote 'could have easily been replaced by any other curse word.' The real problem I guess is that the word n----r has become synonymous with the word 'stupid' or 'dumb' or 'fuck' or whatever else orb said he could have replaced that word with.
People who have the problem with 'gay' or 'f----t' have an issue with the same thing - that it's being used synonymously with derogatory words. Gay means happy, faggot is a type of kindle, and I don't understand why certain communities are trying to claim, and then reclaim, and then reclaim their meanings. At this point, i'm sorry to say but gay does mean stupid, as it's entered the american lexicon. And Louis CK is right too, because I've been calling people f4gs since I was in first grade and I didn't know that being gay could exist. If homosexuals want to own the word gay, then I'd politely ask for it to be returned from whence it came, from where it was before the homosexual community grabbed it and made it mean something else. Gay goes back to meaning happy, otherwise, stfu.
Watch the other Louis CK video I posted. To you a faggot is a swear. To gay people it represents some else entirely. Whether you give a shit or not is your choice, but
a) don't be surprised or defensive if people are offended.
and
a) it does say something about you -- that your value the 'freedom' to swear above the perception of an entire demographic of you.
|
Wow, okay..
I really am surprised to say that, but i think that EG is the most respectable team out there. I mean, yeah. I used to dont like them because of Idras bm-escapades etc, but over the last 2-3 months, somehow EG changed my view of them completely.
I want to really thank Alex Garfield for what he does, i actually think that he absolutely cares about eSport and what it will become in the future. I feel a bit sad for Orb, yes - i waved my pitchfork at him, but i would have been "satisfied" with a suspension, or maybe even a monetary fee (was there something like that ever, in eSport? Just curious). But, i can understand the decision, and i support it after reading the complete posting of Mr. Garfield. I actually hope that EG kinda takes a leading role for eSport, because i think that Mr. Garfields views on eSport and its future are more or less exactly the same as for me. Thats my personal opinion of course, no need to discuss that here. 
Now a question, could someone pm me the sponsors contacts? Yes i know, i could look them up myself (i guess), but maybe someone has them handy somehow. I didnt contact them because of Orbs "mishappen", but i would like to voice my support after reading this statement.
PS: iNcontrol should cast more games. Seriously. Dunno, he made me laugh my ass off yesterday (yes, it was my first time seeing him cast). It was not the most analytical cast with machine, but definately one of the funniest.
|
Dismissing this guy must be the most stupid, untought deciscion a CEO can make.
There is a reason he is up and coming, this means he has less experience and is prone to make mistakes. Even if those mistakes where made in the past.
There is NO reason whatsoever to fire a guy just because a few people decided to start a hunt.
Im sorry but I dont have respect for bosses who act like that. And what is even worse: Idra uses some of the same *foul* language and where do we see him being punished? Its ridiculous from both the EG management and the community.
But hey... people must be proud to be such a civilized and mannered bunch, I mean, really... Hunting someone down is probably the most manner thing I've ever witnessed! Keep it up!
|
i don't understand, is being "smarter" mean that we have to overreact over everything?
|
Canada5052 Posts
On March 09 2012 19:18 FILM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:09 -_- wrote:
Only your ignorance makes you proud to be a Starcraft Community member today, Alex. Most, and perhaps nearly all, of the complaints you received were from pitiful people who want to create some entertainment at Orb's expense. A few others were probably from those slugs who masturbate in self-righteousness and take every opportunity to speak out about a cause because it gets them off. Finally, one or two were likely sincere.
You're probably proud of your post. You think it makes you sound smart and enlightened (though you'd rather die than admit it). Yeesh it doesn't. all due respect, I'm sneering. Although I'm more just sad than sneering, I resonate with these sentiments.
To be honest, I was expecting Alex to cave, to issue some kind of template apology and explain how Orb would never say the word 'nigger' again. That would have been a much easier course of action, and it would appease people like -_- .
Instead, he chose to make a decision based on his own beliefs and principles.
Good for him.
-_- 's cynicism is what depresses me.
|
|
|
On March 09 2012 19:26 AbuseYouMerc wrote:
Dismissing this guy must be the most stupid, untought deciscion a CEO can make.
There is a reason he is up and coming, this means he has less experience and is prone to make mistakes. Even if those mistakes where made in the past.
There is NO reason whatsoever to fire a guy just because a few people decided to start a hunt.
Im sorry but I dont have respect for bosses who act like that. And what is even worse: Idra uses some of the same *foul* language and where do we see him being punished? Its ridiculous from both the EG management and the community.
But hey... people must be proud to be such a civilized and mannered bunch, I mean, really... Hunting someone down is probably the most manner thing I've ever witnessed! Keep it up!
Wanna give an example of idra bm'ing within the past month?
|
I guarantee Debo would slap the shit out of Orb
|
Canada5052 Posts
On March 09 2012 19:26 AbuseYouMerc wrote:
There is NO reason whatsoever to fire a guy just because a few people decided to start a hunt.
Ummm the reason is pretty obvious. To any employer.
|
Yeah, saying nigger and faggot on stream is not good thing and we as a community should move away from these things, and yes, I understand that there must have been some repercussions against Orb if not for saying those words then for lying about it. But the whole way the community went about it (I'm looking at you reddit) was fucking ridiculous, I mean, spamming EG's sponsors? How low can you go?
The starcraft community may see itself as being "better" than say the CS or fighting game community when it comes to maturity but this just shows that it's not the case whatsoever.
|
Idra is known for saying "faggot" or "retard" all the time and shitting on other players saying they are bad, that's why there's never no outrage like this when he says it, It's just "Idra being Idra". I never knew Orb raged this badly by calling people nigger, pretty shocking didn't know he pasted about using that word either. Watching the Korean weekly when he was casting I would of never thought he was that kind of guy. Orb should of just told the truth instead of lying and lying and lying that just made everything worse.
|
On March 09 2012 19:30 iloveAthene wrote: I guarantee Debo would slap the shit out of Orb edit:forgot a word
What for?
|
On March 09 2012 19:30 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 19:26 AbuseYouMerc wrote:
There is NO reason whatsoever to fire a guy just because a few people decided to start a hunt.
Ummm the reason is pretty obvious. To any employer.
But it is not!
Thats what people who've never managed people properly think.
I manage a team of over 50 people, from *veterans* to *young ones*
Both groups make mistakes, the new employees a bit more. Should I fire everyone for every little fuss? Should I fire someone if 10 people tell me he/she is bad, while serving 1000 people a day? Its all about perspective.
This witch hunt was started by someone, some people agreed, but the majority wanted to hop on the bandwagon. I can tell you beforehand that the statistics of people that didnt speak out are probably around the 90% and the ones that did are in the 10% group.
So we fire someone, for a mistake made over a year ago, because a very small minority is vocal about it?
bad management is bad
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
