Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
I can say from the bottom of my heart, as a black man and Starcraft fan (I mod many popular streams under the name g3n3tik), that this is extremely dumb. To my understanding he said "the N word" as you guys are calling it now a days in some ladder games in a non-racist fashion. Some ladder games long before he was employed by EG. Well first read this comment:
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On March 09 2012 12:50 kibeth wrote: I actually find your post overly condescending and obnoxious, and I like EG as an organization.
It's kind of like if I stole a toy from a grocery store when I was 8. Later in life I work there, and somehow someone finds out that a decade ago I stole a 99cent toy, and I was fired. Sounds ridiculous right?
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because it basically sums up how I feel about that. Lets bring it down to scale. I don't swear in my day to day life. Sorry if you don't believe me but I don't. Though I'd be lieing if I said I've never called someone a dumb f**king piece of sh*t b**tard. If my boss found that I out I don't think he would fire me, even if I changed one of those words to your scary "N" word. Who knows, maybe it's because I'm black.
Secondly stop giving the word power. I had to stop reading for a few moments at the part where you talked about your degrees. I think whoever wrote that post should be fired for offending black people, because your entire post is way more offensive than some kid raging on starcraft. Its more of a slang word now a days and even when its said offensively too me I don't run home crying. It's the same as being called weird or dumb to me, people just give it all this power. I feel the same way about homosexual people claiming the word "gay" for themselves. Both me and my gay friends don't understand this, but I don't want to start a fire fight here so back to the point....
Sadly I don't speak on behalf of all my people in the world. So I clarify that I don't think this situation is dumb so much as the people who bring it about. To anyone who thinks getting some kid FIRED for TYPING a WORD on THE INTERNET while he was MAD doesn't believe to have their opinion even counted... In my opinion of course.
Now if he said it on air or something, or said it with the intent of being racist then we'll sit down and talk. Like I said though, to my knowledge this isn't the case. If it is please tell me so I can delete this post and go on living my marry life.
P.S. Look between these lines | | You see that? Those are all the f**ks my family gives about people using the word.
Thanks, this is pretty much how I feel (though I'm white, maybe it's not PC for me to feel that way.. who knows...). People need to stop giving that word power.
On March 09 2012 18:40 february wrote: I appreciate Evil Geniuses addressing a community issue so promptly and concisely, but seriously, this was blown so out of proportion. If the /r/starcraft community continues to sway swathes of people to their ridiculous witch hunts we will see the stagnation of the SC2 scene. I agree there should be some repercussions for inappropriate behaviour, but the response to a few of Orb's transgressions on that ladder have been completely ridiculous.
I think, based on the OP, this issue struck a personal chord with Alex. Reddit certianly triggered the situation, but I don't think it influenced the severity of the punishment.
On March 09 2012 18:40 february wrote: I appreciate Evil Geniuses addressing a community issue so promptly and concisely, but seriously, this was blown so out of proportion. If the /r/starcraft community continues to sway swathes of people to their ridiculous witch hunts we will see the stagnation of the SC2 scene. I agree there should be some repercussions for inappropriate behaviour, but the response to a few of Orb's transgressions on that ladder have been completely ridiculous.
This scene is already stagnating. Avenues for new viewers have been closing constantly. We will see if the SC2 playerbase is enough to support itself or if the ceiling falls.
Also people don't kid yourself. The way this case have developed orb have went from an offender to a victim. This whole shitstorm have made him more famous, going from a nobody to a somebody, and also a somebody that people may see as someone who have been threated unfairly. So instead of "punishing" him for the use of the n-word, the moralplice have actually rewarded him...
On March 09 2012 18:00 Lowko wrote: Wow.. That's a really silly reason in my honest opinion. I understand that this happened, but if Orb promises it won't happen again, and that he apologies for his behaviour: What is there left to argue about?
unfortunately its not about ethics its about business
from what ive read over the past few months i get the feeling that business is all that EG is about.
also on topic: This seems to be an "american only" topic so I dont feel right commenting on it. I just dont agree but i also cant relate with it one bit.
Not being american (french speaking belgian here), it's hard to have a clear opinion about the whole issue since - I guess - to be able to truely perceive the "offensive intensity" of a word, you need to have assimilated (part of) its history. I understand that words can be offensive since every language has plenty of those (there's some words that I'd never use in french, and that I'd rather not hear either) but who is to make the list of what is acceptable and what's not ? In general I'd say the problem I have is not with the words themselves, but the people using them, in other words, (I think) I get upset reading racist words (directed at me or other people) not because of the words per se, but because of the people using them, it's the people that count. The same 'racist' word used by a comedian on national tv and by my dad has two different effects. One can make me laugh, the other make me die inside a little bit more.
That's why I'd agree with Destiny that it's all a matter of context. As a foreigner, listening to Destiny with Debo, I can only get the impression that using the n word is totally ok in his mouth and his stream, he doesn't seem to be racist because of that - and I don't think he uses it on purpose to make money either (that'd be a strange business plan), it's just who he is - and doesn't strike me as a racist. I'd even say that people accusing him of it probably do much worse than what he does by creating shitstorms for probably nothing. He'd use the n word once and 50 pages of discussion about racism ensues and give a tribune to those who'd want to express their racist opinions whereas nothing should have happened in the first place and we'd probably would all have been better off in the first place.
In the case of Destiny, I can of course understand that people get offended by his vocabulary and would never use it but if so, they shouldn't watch his stream in the first place. If they do, they deserve the George Carlin heckler handling treatment ( ) a.k.a. you gotta use psychology. -edit- Once again, as a foreigner, it's hard for me to understand why he shouldn't use the words when it's used in some mainstream medias (see the Jay-Z and other youtubes videos above) -end of edit-
Should Orb been fired because of that ? People who know him better should decide of that. If they feel there was a clear racist undertone to what he said, hell yeah then, why not. If there wasn't, it was a harsh punishment in my opinion, but I understand EG addresses to a huge audience and got sponsors to take care of, it's part of the game, they know what's good for them (and Orb shouldn't have a hard time finding a new employer, he's probably more "famous" now than he was yesterday).
Well, it's a complex issue, I'm just trying to understand what's ok and what's not and it seems it's either against/for the use of such words in the sc scene. Shouldn't it be more complex than that ?
Finally, can this be tolerated ? - edit - As crazy as the guy is/sounds (marines are op), isn't the message at 0:50 more important than the vocabulary used ? And doesn't his vocabulary makes his point stronger ? -end of edit -
On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote: People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/
That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that.
That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today.
I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement
MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012.
On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:
On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote: A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest.
And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is.
You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black.
Outlawing slavery didn't give blacks the right to vote, or equal rights in any way. It's been a very long and bloody process, and to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant.
Yeah, people that don't realize how things are and have been here can't really comment intelligently on the subject. There are towns to this day in the South blacks simply do not dare enter. Now, I'm against most "politically correct" bullshit but there things some things you can't deny.
For example, I refuse to use the word "African American." It seems to include the assumption that all people from Africa have dark skin. This ignorance of the continent does offend me.
And there are no parts of any city where Whites, Hispanic, Asian or any other ethnicity doesn't enter out of fear? And yes African American is a misnomer which school textbooks and old resources have kept alive. I believe black is the correct terminology if you need to refer to someone by their racial appearance.
Very true, but those parts of cities be they inhabited by Hispanics, Blacks, or Whites are dangerous because crime and poverty, not necessarily racism. Anyone with a nice car or whatever is scared to go there. These towns I'm talking are "peaceful" places but if a black family moves in, their house is going to be firebombed.
Well, EG and Alex, I don't mind orb acting the way he has so far (even though I think he would be wise not to act that way, but I won't judge him for it) and I don't mind Idra calling people faggots. I do mind that you treat them differently though. But hey... it's business, and a bit of subjectivity. You should probably just stay silent about that though, because I don't see any way you could come out ahead in that discussion. I wouldn't mind if you tried, but you really shouldn't
This is just silly. If I understand it correct, he said this word long time ago, before he got hired by EG? If that's the case, why should you guys fire him now? Everybody can make a mistake, but if this guy has a been a really good employee for you guys, then I really can't see whats the problem here. Has he been unprofessional while working for you guys? If not, then Im a bit shocked..
you shouldn't absolutely take no pride in being part of this community. Because not only did you give in to a bunch of people who don't give ONE SINGLE FUCK about "racism" or what is actually right, you also failed to see what this is really about: Bored people making shit up out of nothing. And btw: When Huk used the N-wordcouple weeks ago in a tweet, people in this community acted exactly like the CS-community you described: "...with more amusement than anything else".
First these people claimed orb was a racist, and when orb gave his explanation, everyone was suddenly like:"No wait, we don't care that he used the N-word, we are offended because he lied to us and didn't stand up for his mistakes!"
That's why I'd agree with Destiny that it's all a matter of context. As a foreigner, listening to Destiny with Debo, I can only get the impression that using the n word is totally ok in his mouth and his stream, he doesn't seem to be racist because of that - and I don't think he uses it on purpose to make money either (that'd be a strange business plan), it's just who he is - and doesn't strike me as a racist. I'd even say that people accusing him of it probably do much worse than what he does by creating shitstorms for probably nothing. He'd use the n word once and 50 pages of discussion about racism ensues and give a tribune to those who'd want to express their racist opinions whereas nothing should have happened in the first place and we'd probably would all have been better off in the first place.
The thing is, I'm not sure if I've ever read that Destiny used the word 'nigger' as an insult. He might have a great relationship with Debo and call each other 'nigga' all the time. They might even call other player 'niggers'.
Orb clearly meant it as an insult. Even if it wasn't 'actually racist,' it does reinforce the age-old racist stereotype that black people are inferior (or else it would have no value as an insult).
total overreaction if you ask me, 90% people here do worst things weekly. Orb is the best caster you could have wished for. And you already have idra whos attitude is even more screwed and you dont care about that?
Caving into people who say they are complaining to sponsor's is disgusting and outright firing him(Dismissing him isn't the right word you fired him.) is disturbingly strong considering last time I checked you have plenty of colourful use of language on the EG Lineups.
The fact that you ignore it or at least don't mention them speaks of a double standard of what is worth fighting for and what is not. I understand this I do, you fight for people like Idra because he makes you a large amount of money and is very popular. However if you claim to have morals as a reason for you firing someone and then ignore this issue and others you have known about for years. It's obvious to anyone why you really got rid of him. It's not worth the effort to defend someone who hasn't made you a lot of money.
I'am afraid that I can't support that kind of moral double-standard. If it's not okay for him to say it months/years ago it shouldn't be okay for your players(even if they are money makers) to do it now.
I feel bad for the community when you can threaten sponsors and force a company to fire a person because of a mistake made that was at worst something you come out apologize for and move on. Let's hope that kind of thing doesn't spiral out of control.
That's why I'd agree with Destiny that it's all a matter of context. As a foreigner, listening to Destiny with Debo, I can only get the impression that using the n word is totally ok in his mouth and his stream, he doesn't seem to be racist because of that - and I don't think he uses it on purpose to make money either (that'd be a strange business plan), it's just who he is - and doesn't strike me as a racist. I'd even say that people accusing him of it probably do much worse than what he does by creating shitstorms for probably nothing. He'd use the n word once and 50 pages of discussion about racism ensues and give a tribune to those who'd want to express their racist opinions whereas nothing should have happened in the first place and we'd probably would all have been better off in the first place.
The thing is, I'm not sure if I've ever read that Destiny used the word 'nigger' as an insult. He might have a great relationship with Debo and call each other 'nigga' all the time. They might even call other player 'niggers'.
Orb clearly meant it as an insult. Even if it wasn't 'actually racist,' it does reinforce the age-old racist stereotype that black people are inferior (or else it would have no value as an insult).
I only got into SC2 after the game was out so i never knew anything about Orb from Beta days.
Ive always seen him as a great caster, but this, such showing of poor character with all the lies etc...
Still think hes a great caster, but wont be waching him anytime soon, at least untill he appologizes and proves he changed.
I consider Scoots and Alex very fair and intelligent people from what i see, had no doubt they would deal with this situation accordingly, seeing people complaining to sponsors maybe thats a bit too much imo.
EPT
