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Orb Dismissed from Evil Geniuses Broadcasts - Page 78

Forum Index > SC2 General
3626 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 76 77 78 79 80 182 Next
Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.

In short, be smart.

Alex comments on Idra:


Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038

Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
March 09 2012 09:57 GMT
#1541
Overreaction of monumental proportions. So many more prominent members of our community have probably said/done worse things. Should light ever be shed on these actions, do we then retroactively punish them with something completely unrelated?
HailPlays
Profile Joined March 2012
39 Posts
March 09 2012 09:59 GMT
#1542
On March 09 2012 18:32 ffdestiny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 18:07 HailPlays wrote:
On March 09 2012 17:45 ffdestiny wrote:
On March 09 2012 17:04 Eschaton wrote:
I'm glad this happened. I see this word thrown around so much by ragers on ladder that at times I have questioned whether this community that seems in general to condone the usage of the "n-word" is one that I actually want to be a part of, whether I want to be associated with people like this. And here is the thing about its common usage that I see on BNet - it is absolutely meant in a racist way, to suggest that another player is bad because they might belong to a certain race. Call it a joke if you want, but that is just a lie to hide your racism behind. The condonement I see on BNet isn't even tacit - typically in a team game calling someone a n----- well elicit more than a few LOLs. When Orb acts that way in public - and make no mistake, when he is laddering as "Orb", he is acting as a public figure - it sends a message to the rest of the community that it is OK to do as he did.

Great post Alex, and I'm glad that you stepped up to show some leadership here. Unfortunately there are many posters here who see no problem with a highly visible community member behaving as Orb did. From comments such as above ("I cannot respect your post. Expecting universal condemnation of behaviour that does not conform to your personal values strikes me as a terrible thing." - Hailplays) there are simply those in our community who think that racism is fine. To answer Hailplays, condemning racism in all its forms is not simply a belief of Alex Garfield's - it is a fundamental tenant of the global society in which we all live, and it's reasonable to expect nearly universal condemnation, excluding racists of course.


It's leaning towards about 60/40 or 70/30 (against/for) the usage of the n-word, and any other word/slur/euphemism--at least in the Starcraft community. Basically the minority are either bigoted Destiny fanboys, or (by extension) Orb followers--they can't understand the point of the argument past logical fallacies, red herrings, and diversionary tactics enacted by said popular streamers/caster to either justifty, cope, self-delude, or project their white guilt unto a meaningless "context" debate. They cannot, and will not accept the denotation of a word, and the history of said racism. For them, life is black/white, and they see things only in true or false ways.


Excellent work, placing the entire group opposing your view into one conveniently dismissed camp. It is inconceivable to you that someone might have a different but well thought out opinion worth considering. And then you follow it up with an accusation of seeing things as black or white! The irony!

Even more ironic: your intolerant broad brush strokes are probably the sort of thing that enabled racism against blacks in the first place.


Just for your information, racism isn't "my camp" or "my view" it's been historically active for as long as human history has existed--it's belaboring to have the undying need to explain how racism works, what it is, and how it operates even outside of the dissonance surrounding the shadow-dancing context debate. It's also tiring, to the point of re-statement, to attempt to inject the reasoning behind the n-word, or any other slur/culturally derogatory/charged remark to individuals, like those who are/or follow Destiny or support Orb's use too--obviously it's not very eidetic, or even respectful to anyone's character to sit behind the veil of the internet and figuratively regurgitate infallible "creative situations" or logical fallacies such as "words don't hurt people, therefore words are meaningless" or "the context is different, so therefore my version is perfectly acceptable" or "some black people agree somewhat with my views, so therefore I am right" and on and on and on...


If only your reading comprehension matched your pretentious vocabulary. I did not mention your camp, and I did not defend the poorly thought out views many have expressed. I referred specifically to your broad dismissal of the entire minority.. It is really rather easy to understand:

YOU OPINION GOOD. OTHER OPINION BAD. ALL WITH OTHER OPINION BECAUSE STUPID & WRONG. YOU VIEW NUANCED, NOT BLACK & WHITE.

This line of thinking is obviously closely related to racism. Replace opinion with ethnicity and it's apartheid in a nutshell. I find it (and you) quite hilarious.

Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
March 09 2012 10:00 GMT
#1543
Whilst I'm sad Orb took such a large punishment, I am very appreciative of this statement and the strong stance against racism. Very dissapointing to learn that people contacted sponsers so quickly though, even in the best case outcome now it makes the community look a bit childish.
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
iloveAthene
Profile Joined June 2011
186 Posts
March 09 2012 10:00 GMT
#1544
On March 09 2012 18:57 Megabuster123 wrote:
I can't believe people are trying to define nigga and nigger differently....semantics....>_>


dude it's true
I was smoking a blunt with these black guys one time and they were "it's all good to say nigga but if you add the "er" we're gonna beat the shit out of you" No clue how the subject came up, I certainly didn't bring it up.

not making that up
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 10:01:19
March 09 2012 10:00 GMT
#1545
On March 09 2012 18:57 Megabuster123 wrote:
I can't believe people are trying to define nigga and nigger differently....semantics....>_>


Trust me I hate doing it to. I think nigger is just a loaded, inflammatory word and there's not real reason to co-opt for everyday use. I even wish Black people would stop using it. It cheapens the word.

But context matters. And if there is a 'gradient' of how offensive it is when you use it, you have to differentiate it somehow.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
March 09 2012 10:00 GMT
#1546
What would be a fair outcome for Orb? -- A stand down period of 3 months, as a recognition that high profile SC community members are held to a higher level of behaviour than your average internet user.

What is the commercially realistic outcome for Orb?
-- He must be fired and removed from all EG related activities. The corporate world is a bitch sometimes, and you need to know how to function in it or face the harshest of penalties.


Sad for Orb, I doubt he's racist. However, if he lied about it being him that would just be pathetic.

EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
OPL3SA2
Profile Joined April 2011
United States378 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 10:03:31
March 09 2012 10:01 GMT
#1547
"Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community"


F----t has nothing to do with being gay. For example, quit being a f-----t and suck that guy's diq."

(Louis CK, Chewed Up 2008)
Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?
Carnagath
Profile Joined July 2010
230 Posts
March 09 2012 10:01 GMT
#1548
I agree with this decision and applaud it. Of course this sets a precedent and we should expect to see Idra and Huk get kicked off the team any day now, or EG are hypocrites.
"If you can chill, chill". -Tyler
Megabuster123
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada1837 Posts
March 09 2012 10:02 GMT
#1549
On March 09 2012 19:00 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 18:57 Megabuster123 wrote:
I can't believe people are trying to define nigga and nigger differently....semantics....>_>


Trust me I hate doing it to. I think nigger is just a loaded, inflammatory word and there's not real reason to co-opt for everyday use. I even wish Black people would stop using it. It cheapens the word.

But context matters. And if there is a 'gradient' of how offensive it is when you use it, you have to differentiate it somehow.

I think context is the only thing that matters. Nigga/Nigger are basically the same thing. The only difference is that most casual uses of nigger are at the end of a sentence so it just gets slanged.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
March 09 2012 10:02 GMT
#1550
On March 09 2012 18:52 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 18:47 Eurekastreet wrote:


That's why I'd agree with Destiny that it's all a matter of context. As a foreigner, listening to Destiny with Debo, I can only get the impression that using the n word is totally ok in his mouth and his stream, he doesn't seem to be racist because of that - and I don't think he uses it on purpose to make money either (that'd be a strange business plan), it's just who he is - and doesn't strike me as a racist. I'd even say that people accusing him of it probably do much worse than what he does by creating shitstorms for probably nothing. He'd use the n word once and 50 pages of discussion about racism ensues and give a tribune to those who'd want to express their racist opinions whereas nothing should have happened in the first place and we'd probably would all have been better off in the first place.




The thing is, I'm not sure if I've ever read that Destiny used the word 'nigger' as an insult. He might have a great relationship with Debo and call each other 'nigga' all the time. They might even call other player 'niggers'.

Orb clearly meant it as an insult. Even if it wasn't 'actually racist,' it does reinforce the age-old racist stereotype that black people are inferior (or else it would have no value as an insult).


Indeed, I think that distinction is important, using the word as an insult is entirely different from any other context. I usually do not side with political-correctness, but in this case I am happy with EG's response.

I don't think these incidents can classify Orb as a racist, but the extremely deceitful and manipulative way he has tried to handle this does make him a dishonest coward to me. I am sad to admit that I am glad to see him fail.
tombola
Profile Joined September 2011
41 Posts
March 09 2012 10:03 GMT
#1551
I actually fault this to the actions of the SC2 community for getting out the pitchforks again and starting another witch-hunt. Even if this whole situation stuck a nerve with Alex's moral values I don't think he of all people, because he seems like he's always understanding and willing to give someone another chance, would just kick him out of the EG-house. There was definately some big sponsorshipissue wich forced him into making this decision. Let's not kid ourselfs here, they need those sponsors and if you have to make a decision between a teamsponsor and player/caster you SHOULD as the teams manager always choose the sponsor because that ensures the financial support of your team.
The whole thing got blown way out of proportion and it just isn't right, like Alex stated, to threaten a teams sponsors before giving the team time to react. We as a community should not be too hastely with our action because we could hurt the sport, wich already has problems in getting in more viewers, as a whole.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
March 09 2012 10:03 GMT
#1552
On March 09 2012 19:01 OPL3SA2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
"Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community"


F----t has nothing to do with being gay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IFloXOuLgA
(Louis CK, Chewed Up 2008)



Herp Derp, same comedian on the show he wrote and directed two years later.

Chessz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States644 Posts
March 09 2012 10:05 GMT
#1553
I wish all the people justifying the usage of orb's words as "contextual" or operating in some context that isn't racist, (not saying orb himself is a racist), a linguistic appeal to context is always two-sided, and often the speakers/defenders of the speech focus almost primarily on the context of the speaker. We already thoroughly debunked this fallacious line of argumentation back during Destiny's immature "language chat" or whatever that was.

Do I need to post his thread from /r/linguistics?
askTeivospy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1525 Posts
March 09 2012 10:06 GMT
#1554
Very well written Alex, I agree with your decision from the way you wrote it out although prior i wouldn't be for Orb being punished further than just an apology. What you wrote was very thoughtful and I agree with it in the end and how you handled the situation
hihihi
Fleshcut
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany592 Posts
March 09 2012 10:08 GMT
#1555
So after reading this statement I have to agree on some parts like the "racism is bad"-thing and the "we won't get him back"-policy because of the points Alex mentioned and because he MUST be consequent as a CEO.
What I don't agree with, is the overreacting of the community and the disregard of when and in what context the word was used.
First of all: Who bypasses the CEO and bullshits the sponsors within this short time. It seems that EG haters just used this chance to badmouth EG in a way that really hurts them and not only them, ESPORTS in general. I'd go and tell the sponsors that it would be a failure to step away from EG anytime but I'm too lazy and Alex didn't post a link to it (btw. why not? XD If you don't want to then send me a PM - implying that you still read this thread and care for my voice :3 ).
Second: Why give orb so much hate because of this? He clearly used it in a moment of pure frustration and even though it's always bad to choose words that are racist, it's obvious that it wasn't said because of racist thoughts. Orb is my age and I totally understand how he felt in that moment and that he didn't even think about his later career with EG back then. It's definitely a sad day for him but he also learned a ton of lessons.
Fighting racism or homophobia doesn't start with changing our vocabulary. It starts in our mind and how we approach people in real life and not in a game where the only thing we know about our opponent is that he cheesed and appears to be letters on my monitor. There our words rarely describe our political views on somebody and more the frustration we feel in losing.

TL;DR People who complain at the EG sponsors are stupid. Alex handled the situation in the right way even though it's a hard judgement. Orb is forgiven because he isn't guilty of anything.
MJesk
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands18 Posts
March 09 2012 10:11 GMT
#1556
I am not a native English speaker. I get that the 'n-word' is offensive. But jeez. Words do not have magic powers. It seems to me that people are just as afraid to use that word as Harry Potter characters are afraid to use Voldemort.

That's just silly to me. The only reason this specific word is a problem, is because people perceive it as a problem. The real problem, racism, is completely overlooked here.
OPL3SA2
Profile Joined April 2011
United States378 Posts
March 09 2012 10:11 GMT
#1557
The real problem as orb stated in his apology, is that his use of the word n----r quote unquote 'could have easily been replaced by any other curse word.' The real problem I guess is that the word n----r has become synonymous with the word 'stupid' or 'dumb' or 'fuck' or whatever else orb said he could have replaced that word with.

People who have the problem with 'gay' or 'f----t' have an issue with the same thing - that it's being used synonymously with derogatory words. Gay means happy, faggot is a type of kindle, and I don't understand why certain communities are trying to claim, and then reclaim, and then reclaim their meanings. At this point, i'm sorry to say but gay does mean stupid, as it's entered the american lexicon. And Louis CK is right too, because I've been calling people f4gs since I was in first grade and I didn't know that being gay could exist. If homosexuals want to own the word gay, then I'd politely ask for it to be returned from whence it came, from where it was before the homosexual community grabbed it and made it mean something else. Gay goes back to meaning happy, otherwise, stfu.
Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?
capu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Finland224 Posts
March 09 2012 10:12 GMT
#1558
Nigga is a word which evolved from the derogative term "nigger". Tupac best defined the distinction between the two.

NIGGER- a black man with a slavery chain around his neck.

NIGGA- a black man with a gold chain on his neck.

from urbandictionary
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
March 09 2012 10:14 GMT
#1559
Why always these overreactions to the word 'nigger', i don't get it. Yes it's offensive and i know it's past but many cursewords or even just jovially used words have some offensive background. Why is 'nigger' so terrible while faggot, gay, son of a bitch, mofo, nazi etc are being used in both a jovial and offensive way as well without being that problematic.
Ofcourse some people claim that nigger is never used in a jovial way but there are tons of rap songs to disprove that easily. Personally I think cursing with cancer is much worse and even that I wouldn't consider to be too bad, ofcourse i'd never use it myself but this overreaction to nigger is a bit silly.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
March 09 2012 10:14 GMT
#1560
Team EG is irrelevant anyway, whatever happens there has absolutely no effect on the Starcraft community. Stop giving attention to these people they don't deserve it, Orb will just find some other organization to give him money.
Such a pathetic publicity stunt... 78 pages... for this crap?
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
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