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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
good statement - I understand the situation and I agree with the reaction of EG
keep it up
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As someone has that has worked in the restaurant industry as a waiter and a bartender for eight years I can say with the utmost confidence that racism definitely still exists in pretty overwhelming fashion. Obviously just waiting tables doesn't make me some sort of expert or anything, but I have personally seen hundreds of accounts of people not being treated fairly because of the perception or stereotype that minorities don't tip. It's extremely sad and a part of life that I wish didn't exist. EG made the right move here by firing Orb, but I hope it's out of genuine necessity for higher standards and not just because they are worried about losing sponsorship. I think if anything some good might actually come from all this simply because it sheds some light on one more the more negative aspects of our community. Hopefully some of the people that reads through this thread will realize how ignorant and hurtful their words can be.
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On March 09 2012 12:50 kibeth wrote:
I actually find your post overly condescending and obnoxious, and I like EG as an organization.
It's kind of like if I stole a toy from a grocery store when I was 8. Later in life I work there, and somehow someone finds out that a decade ago I stole a 99cent toy, and I was fired. Sounds ridiculous right?
This. Honestly this thread is sobackwards. You've never said nigger? That's great, but how many times have you used derogatory terms like "faggot" and "retard" which are just as bad?
What orb did out of frustration/anger definitely wasn't good but one of the other team members on team EG is just as bad if not worse.
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On March 09 2012 18:27 whatwhatanut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:55 Tijoy wrote:here are many valid reasons to find the word n----- offensive and repulsive, but for me, the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. i personaly think this is one of the best lines reguarding that word i ave ever read It is a great example of a "and sentence". If you have a large vocabulary sentences that use 2 adjectives or adverbs for everything sound very erudite. I cannot agree with EG and their behavior. Orb definitely martyred himself but as I have seen throughout this thread, and from my personal experience, what is the punishment for Incontrol and Idra fr constantly calling others F---? EG seems to be having it both ways. Unless they presume that players do not need to stand to the same standard.
Doesn't martyr mean to sacrifice oneself for a cause? So Orb took a hit so all white skinny nerds can now say nigger with impunity?
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On March 09 2012 18:13 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:04 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:58 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012. On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest. And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is. You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black. Outlawing slavery didn't give blacks the right to vote, or equal rights in any way. It's been a very long and bloody process, and to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant. Yeah, people that don't realize how things are and have been here can't really comment intelligently on the subject. There are towns to this day in the South blacks simply do not dare enter. Now, I'm against most "politically correct" bullshit but there things some things you can't deny. For example, I refuse to use the word "African American." It seems to include the assumption that all people from Africa have dark skin. This ignorance of the continent does offend me.
haha, also offended quite easily, hmm?
African American implies that the origins of a Black person is in Africa, which can hardly be denied, not that all Africans are black.
Just like every square is a quadrangle, but not every quadrangle is a square.
People seriously need to get off their high horses considering their morals and "being offended" so fast, jeez, this whole thing has been blown way out or proportion and there is a huge deal of hypocrazy involved, EG in my opinion made a business decision to fire Orb because of people who are "offended" put pressure on their sponsors.
Idra has done worse things in the past than some random ladder raging and no actions have been taken. Oh, Idra is far more popular than Orb, so I guess that's OK.
I miss the days when the Internet seemed to be a free place where conventional tabus and polictical correctness were not present.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and cool down.
Orb using the words was just expressing his anger over his loss. If someone BMs me like that after a ladder game, I smile because it means I really got to my opponent and he is angry, and I am not OFFENDED.
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On March 09 2012 18:07 HailPlays wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:45 ffdestiny wrote:On March 09 2012 17:04 Eschaton wrote:
I'm glad this happened. I see this word thrown around so much by ragers on ladder that at times I have questioned whether this community that seems in general to condone the usage of the "n-word" is one that I actually want to be a part of, whether I want to be associated with people like this. And here is the thing about its common usage that I see on BNet - it is absolutely meant in a racist way, to suggest that another player is bad because they might belong to a certain race. Call it a joke if you want, but that is just a lie to hide your racism behind. The condonement I see on BNet isn't even tacit - typically in a team game calling someone a n----- well elicit more than a few LOLs. When Orb acts that way in public - and make no mistake, when he is laddering as "Orb", he is acting as a public figure - it sends a message to the rest of the community that it is OK to do as he did.
Great post Alex, and I'm glad that you stepped up to show some leadership here. Unfortunately there are many posters here who see no problem with a highly visible community member behaving as Orb did. From comments such as above ("I cannot respect your post. Expecting universal condemnation of behaviour that does not conform to your personal values strikes me as a terrible thing." - Hailplays) there are simply those in our community who think that racism is fine. To answer Hailplays, condemning racism in all its forms is not simply a belief of Alex Garfield's - it is a fundamental tenant of the global society in which we all live, and it's reasonable to expect nearly universal condemnation, excluding racists of course. It's leaning towards about 60/40 or 70/30 (against/for) the usage of the n-word, and any other word/slur/euphemism--at least in the Starcraft community. Basically the minority are either bigoted Destiny fanboys, or (by extension) Orb followers--they can't understand the point of the argument past logical fallacies, red herrings, and diversionary tactics enacted by said popular streamers/caster to either justifty, cope, self-delude, or project their white guilt unto a meaningless "context" debate. They cannot, and will not accept the denotation of a word, and the history of said racism. For them, life is black/white, and they see things only in true or false ways. Excellent work, placing the entire group opposing your view into one conveniently dismissed camp. It is inconceivable to you that someone might have a different but well thought out opinion worth considering. And then you follow it up with an accusation of seeing things as black or white! The irony! Even more ironic: your intolerant broad brush strokes are probably the sort of thing that enabled racism against blacks in the first place.
Just for your information, racism isn't "my camp" or "my view" it's been historically active for as long as human history has existed--it's belaboring to have the undying need to explain how racism works, what it is, and how it operates even outside of the dissonance surrounding the shadow-dancing context debate. It's also tiring, to the point of re-statement, to attempt to inject the reasoning behind the n-word, or any other slur/culturally derogatory/charged remark to individuals, like those who are/or follow Destiny or support Orb's use too--obviously it's not very eidetic, or even respectful to anyone's character to sit behind the veil of the internet and figuratively regurgitate infallible "creative situations" or logical fallacies such as "words don't hurt people, therefore words are meaningless" or "the context is different, so therefore my version is perfectly acceptable" or "some black people agree somewhat with my views, so therefore I am right" and on and on and on...
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The whole point is EG wouldn't have picked up Orb for casting had they known his reputation/ ( things he has said in his past ) . So after finding out about the way he has acted / acts. they cut him. pretty simple. All the latest display of racism did was point EG to the previous outbursts from Orb.
Anyone who brings up idrA has a point but it doesn't matter because idrA is too valuable to the team he can pretty much get away with anything, that's just how it works.
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As an african american in the starcraft community i was really offended when I heard about what Orb said while raging on the ladder. Some people may try to down play it like it isn't that serious but for those of us who has had to live with the pain and twisted history behing that word, we don't take it likely. I really liked Orb but now I am going to think twice about listening to his cast. I think EG did you right thing and I hope Orb learns from this situation so he can better his career in the future.
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On March 09 2012 18:13 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:04 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:58 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012. On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest. And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is. You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black. Outlawing slavery didn't give blacks the right to vote, or equal rights in any way. It's been a very long and bloody process, and to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant. Yeah, people that don't realize how things are and have been here can't really comment intelligently on the subject. There are towns to this day in the South blacks simply do not dare enter. Now, I'm against most "politically correct" bullshit but there things some things you can't deny. For example, I refuse to use the word "African American." It seems to include the assumption that all people from Africa have dark skin. This ignorance of the continent does offend me.
And there are no parts of any city where Whites, Hispanic, Asian or any other ethnicity doesn't enter out of fear? And yes African American is a misnomer which school textbooks and old resources have kept alive. I believe black is the correct terminology if you need to refer to someone by their racial appearance.
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On March 09 2012 18:22 Merlimoo wrote:
Firing him without even letting him a chance to redeem himself, sounds like a retaliation for what happened to you in 2003. And I deeply think that forgiveness should be a more important value than everything else.
At the end of the day, I just assume that Alex's own values and personal experiences wouldn't allow him to walk around and defend a guy that starting calling people niggers because he was getting cannon rushed.
Can you imagine trying to explain that to a potential investor that knows barely anything about Starcraft? Or even a friend that is just starting to learn about the game? Not only would it be embarassing, but if you knew anything about Black history you'd feel like a piece of shit for doing it.
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Am I the only one that finds it funny how many people here are outraged over people being outraged?
I don't know why so many people are bringing up racism, isn't the whole issue being that orb used inappropriate language that can offend people? I mean I don't think(and hope) many people think orb is racist but he used some terrible language(that people get offended by it, deal with it), lied about using it and got fired for acting like an ass?
We can argue whether the punishment was fair or not but I don't see a point arguing if orb is racist or not based on his comment.
E: Also why are people using white guilt as some kind of attack against people who didn't like orbs comments. Whether we like it or not orb represents a part of our community and I can see a lot of people getting angry over orb using that kind of language in a public place.I mean I would be embarrassed if other people would start thinking that all SC2 gamers are like that.My point being is that there are other reasons to not liking orbs actions other than white guilt
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I just think somewhere along the way this whole debacle stopped being about racism and started being about getting orb fired!
You can't deny the severity of the situation but I really really doubt that the general guy on internet is THIS outraged by a kneejerk angry rage reaction to a ladder loss.
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On March 09 2012 18:28 murphs wrote:Show nested quote +...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community . Hell yeah. Brilliant post. You have great values and we need more people like you in the world
Except if it's Idra who says faggot of course. He's worth way too much to fire even though he's acted worse than Orb in the past.
If standards are good, then double standards must be twice as good!
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On March 09 2012 18:32 polarwolf wrote:
I miss the days when the Internet seemed to be a free place where conventional tabus and polictical correctness were not present.
It still is for most part, except the star craft community tries to change the essence of internet and gaming to become more professional.
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On March 09 2012 18:33 Veritech12 wrote:
As an african american in the starcraft community i was really offended when I heard about what Orb said while raging on the ladder. Some people may try to down play it like it isn't that serious but for those of us who has had to live with the pain and twisted history behing that word, we don't take it likely. I really liked Orb but now I am going to think twice about listening to his cast. I think EG did you right thing and I hope Orb learns from this situation so he can better his career in the future.
Yet a lot of black guys use the word on a daily basis? Honestly, I have many black friends and none of them take offense to the word nigger. It's 2012 and even though racism still exists, unless you live in poorer parts in the west there won't be any "pain".
It's a word, a word that was said by a white guy to most likely another white guy and yet people are trying to get political and crying about it. Teamliquid at it's best.
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Alex, how do we contact your sponsors? Please provide some sort of link. I'm only certain of Intel as a sponsor, and trying to contact them is a painstaking process.
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On March 09 2012 18:28 Malinor wrote:
I feel, I (as a european) lack any basic understanding how using this singular word can be such a huge and (potentially)career ending deal in the US, history books cannot teach you real world stuff like that. Although we have a kind of similar thing in germany, where you basically shot yourself in the foot if you use the word Hitler in nearly any context to a contemporary event or any person... it basically doesn't matter what you say, just never ever draw any connection to the 3rd Reich ever.
Anyway, I really cannot understand the huge implication using this single word can have, but I guess when sponsors getting harassed over this, action is necessary.
Um, ever had someone call someone else Jew? I've heard that once or twice and cringed badly at the sound of it. We do have the same "one word is really bad" feature, it's just that we had the lesson beaten into our culture a lot stronger than americans have, hence you don't hear it for the most part.
I feel the need to clarify, Jew in itself is of course not a racist expression, but used as a clear insult, it gets a whole different meaning in Germany.
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On March 09 2012 18:30 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:27 whatwhatanut wrote:On March 09 2012 12:55 Tijoy wrote:here are many valid reasons to find the word n----- offensive and repulsive, but for me, the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. i personaly think this is one of the best lines reguarding that word i ave ever read It is a great example of a "and sentence". If you have a large vocabulary sentences that use 2 adjectives or adverbs for everything sound very erudite. I cannot agree with EG and their behavior. Orb definitely martyred himself but as I have seen throughout this thread, and from my personal experience, what is the punishment for Incontrol and Idra fr constantly calling others F---? EG seems to be having it both ways. Unless they presume that players do not need to stand to the same standard. Doesn't martyr mean to sacrifice oneself for a cause? So Orb took a hit so all white skinny nerds can now say nigger with impunity?
K, I guess I'll have to be as erudite as Alex...Orb unknowingly and self-destructively unhinged in a moment of adrenaline and testosterone-fueled rage.
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On March 09 2012 18:32 polarwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:13 iloveAthene wrote:On March 09 2012 18:04 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:58 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012. On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest. And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is. You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black. Outlawing slavery didn't give blacks the right to vote, or equal rights in any way. It's been a very long and bloody process, and to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant. Yeah, people that don't realize how things are and have been here can't really comment intelligently on the subject. There are towns to this day in the South blacks simply do not dare enter. Now, I'm against most "politically correct" bullshit but there things some things you can't deny. For example, I refuse to use the word "African American." It seems to include the assumption that all people from Africa have dark skin. This ignorance of the continent does offend me. haha, also offended quite easily, hmm? African American implies that the origins of a Black person is in Africa, which can hardly be denied, not that all Africans are black. Just like every square is a quadrangle, but not every quadrangle is a square. People seriously need to get off their high horses considering their morals and "being offended" so fast, jeez, this whole thing has been blown way out or proportion and there is a huge deal of hypocrazy involved, EG in my opinion made a business decision to fire Orb because of people who are "offended" put pressure on their sponsors. Idra has done worse things in the past than some random ladder raging and no actions have been taken. Oh, Idra is far more popular than Orb, so I guess that's OK. I miss the days when the Internet seemed to be a free place where conventional tabus and polictical correctness were not present. Everyone needs to take a chill pill and cool down. Orb using the words was just expressing his anger over his loss. If someone BMs me like that after a ladder game, I smile because it means I really got to my opponent and he is angry, and I am not OFFENDED.
haha I think you know my offended was a half joke. Ignorance and stupidity do offend me as a human being though. Or maybe just annoy me, idk.
I stand by my African American arguement. I've even heard newscasters here in the US refer to black people in England as African Americans. Which just makes me want to strangle someone.
And don't even get me started on "Caucasian"
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I appreciate Evil Geniuses addressing a community issue so promptly and concisely, but seriously, this was blown so out of proportion. If the /r/starcraft community continues to sway swathes of people to their ridiculous witch hunts we will see the stagnation of the SC2 scene. I agree there should be some repercussions for inappropriate behaviour, but the response to a few of Orb's transgressions on that ladder have been completely ridiculous.
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EPT
