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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today.
I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement
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So eSports and the community needs to mature, but at the same time we cannot forgive what someone has done in the past? I don't know how i feel about this...
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Great OP. But I think the SC community definitely has a racism problem. What's up with that Korean racism ? Just because a player is Korean means he's good ? That he trains harder than other people ? Come on guys ...
I'm really glad the french traduction of the "n-word" totally disappeard from common language. It's a word strongly associated with slavery, colonialism and other historical mistakes made by our ancestors in the name of a superior civilization (note how stupid that sounds).
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I question whether some racial slurs actually hurt because of historical content or due to pride. A friend once told me that the n-word didnt actually offend him because of the historical context because, cmon.., that happened so long ago that he has no idea what it was like to be a slave. Instead it hurt because it showed that the other person intentionally wishes to offend/hurt him. Yes black people can tell me that I have no idea what it's like to be a slave but guess what. NEITHER DO YOU!!!!. And yes I know what its like to hear hurtful words. The thing about being asian is that most people can't tell the difference so your hear all the different asian derogatory terms from chink to gook. At least it keeps things interesting. But i understand. When people call me chink I get angry even though I'm not chinese because the person is intentionally trying to hurt me. Yes some people get offended but from my experience. More people dont get offended but get angry due to pride.
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On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest.
And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is.
TL;DR: Stop talking pseudo intelligent bull. Big words don't make you right. 
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On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement
MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012.
On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest. And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is.
You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black.
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On March 09 2012 17:55 Opera wrote:
Great OP. But I think the SC community definitely has a racism problem. What's up with that Korean racism ? Just because a player is Korean means he's good ? That he trains harder than other people ? Come on guys ...
I'm really glad the french traduction of the "n-word" totally disappeard from common language. It's a word strongly associated with slavery, colonialism and other historical mistakes made by our ancestors in the name of a superior civilization (note how stupid that sounds).
being korean doesnt make you good at starcraft but most of the top players are korean. look at all the major tournaments and see who comes out on top. I dont think its racist to say koreans dominate starcraft when theres so much evidence to back it up.
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On March 09 2012 17:54 Split. wrote:
So eSports and the community needs to mature, but at the same time we cannot forgive what someone has done in the past? I don't know how i feel about this...
Part of me thinks until an employer like EG takes such a strong stand, the behaviour of the community, including casters and players, won't improve.
The truth is, the acceptance of this kind of behaviour (nerd-rage in general) is just embarassing. How to you explain something like this to a huge sponsor, investor, or even a casual fan that this is 'acceptable' or 'part of the game'?
It makes the gaming community look juvenile. And even though I agree that the punishment is harsh, I'm glad Alex has the guts to throw the hammer down.
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On March 09 2012 17:58 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012.
Seriously dude, stop digging.
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Wow.. That's a really silly reason in my honest opinion. I understand that this happened, but if Orb promises it won't happen again, and that he apologies for his behaviour: What is there left to argue about?
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On March 09 2012 18:00 Lowko wrote:
Wow.. That's a really silly reason in my honest opinion. I understand that this happened, but if Orb promises it won't happen again, and that he apologies for his behaviour: What is there left to argue about?
unfortunately its not about ethics its about business
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This is how shit works in America guys. Michael Richards has already been mentioned. Anyone remember senate majority leader Trent Lott? Or the pitcher John Rocker? Rocker made a statement about gays but same deal.
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Surely EG's stance on this must be the same for everyone.. only a few weeks ago I saw a current big name EG team member on twitter reply to a request to attend an event using the N word ( He was asked to change his tweet to something more respectable by managment shortly afterwords which he did) .... Now I'm really not out on a witch hunt but the rules must be the same for everyone so why is this team member still representing EG?
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On March 09 2012 17:58 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:54 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:42 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:39 Eschaton wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that. That was what, eight generations ago? Nobody who witnessed that is alive now. It's even less in the minds of people than the Korean war. People are a lot more worried about what's going on in their lives today. I can understand you not really being aware of modern history in the US if you live in Korea. But I'm sure you've heard of Martin Luther King Jr., and must know that his story didn't take place "eight generations ago." If you're interested at all in more contemporary issues like "the civil rights movement" I'll refer you to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement MLK isn't relevant to your original post, which was talking about slavery. The US outlawed the slave trade in 1808 and outlawed slavery in 1865. We are in 2012. Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:57 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 17:52 tazzat wrote:
A word can not be inherently rascist. As per your definition, i.e., " statement implies /.../ a belief in a racial hierarchy". A word cannot convey a belief in a rascial hierarchy. A word can be used in such a context that it does such, or said in a manner as to convey such a belief, but that is unrelated to the word. A clear example is the word 'cracker', which is not inherently rascist but can be used in such a way that it is. The same goes for the word nigger. It has historically been used in a context that it is considered inherently rascist by most people, but this has nothing to do with the actual word.
I am not defending what orb said, nor do I believe you are doing the wrong thing by dismissing him, what I object to is the framing of this as rascism. Simply saying the word 'nigger' does not make you rascist, bigoted or hateful. It's a word, and if you don't want your employees using it, that is entirely up to you, but framing it in the context of rascism is intellectually dishonest. And using "nigger" people have discriminated african americans for over a century. That is a pretty direct appliance to racial hierarchy. Just because black people call each other nigger doesn't make it non-racist for white people to use it. As a fun experiment, you should go into harlem and call a random shop owner nigger while ordering bubble gum. See how non-racist he thinks that is. You could call him a fucking dumbass if you wanted, he'll feel insulted because you're a stranger, not because he's black.
Outlawing slavery didn't give blacks the right to vote, or equal rights in any way. It's been a very long and bloody process, and to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant.
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I'm glad someone in the community was scapegoated for this type of language because in my opinion it is unacceptable. It is very harsh for Orb because he was beginning to live a dream, but he had had a history of that it seems. There of plenty of offensive words in the English vocabulary without it coming down to race or sexuality. I hope one day people grow out of this childish type of behaviour.
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Completly agree with Alex. You can not be as irresponsible and unprofessional as Orb was while being a major representative of such a huge community , starcraft does not need and can surely afford to replace such people. In fact he wasnt just tossing around crap he shouldnt be, but he also lied about it and hesitated with the apology , it could have went by alot faster and easier on him if he just admited the mistake earlier , but now its too late.
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On March 09 2012 17:45 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:04 Eschaton wrote:
I'm glad this happened. I see this word thrown around so much by ragers on ladder that at times I have questioned whether this community that seems in general to condone the usage of the "n-word" is one that I actually want to be a part of, whether I want to be associated with people like this. And here is the thing about its common usage that I see on BNet - it is absolutely meant in a racist way, to suggest that another player is bad because they might belong to a certain race. Call it a joke if you want, but that is just a lie to hide your racism behind. The condonement I see on BNet isn't even tacit - typically in a team game calling someone a n----- well elicit more than a few LOLs. When Orb acts that way in public - and make no mistake, when he is laddering as "Orb", he is acting as a public figure - it sends a message to the rest of the community that it is OK to do as he did.
Great post Alex, and I'm glad that you stepped up to show some leadership here. Unfortunately there are many posters here who see no problem with a highly visible community member behaving as Orb did. From comments such as above ("I cannot respect your post. Expecting universal condemnation of behaviour that does not conform to your personal values strikes me as a terrible thing." - Hailplays) there are simply those in our community who think that racism is fine. To answer Hailplays, condemning racism in all its forms is not simply a belief of Alex Garfield's - it is a fundamental tenant of the global society in which we all live, and it's reasonable to expect nearly universal condemnation, excluding racists of course. It's leaning towards about 60/40 or 70/30 (against/for) the usage of the n-word, and any other word/slur/euphemism--at least in the Starcraft community. Basically the minority are either bigoted Destiny fanboys, or (by extension) Orb followers--they can't understand the point of the argument past logical fallacies, red herrings, and diversionary tactics enacted by said popular streamers/caster to either justifty, cope, self-delude, or project their white guilt unto a meaningless "context" debate. They cannot, and will not accept the denotation of a word, and the history of said racism. For them, life is black/white, and they see things only in true or false ways.
Excellent work, placing the entire group opposing your view into one conveniently dismissed camp. It is inconceivable to you that someone might have a different but well thought out opinion worth considering. And then you follow it up with an accusation of seeing things as black or white! The irony!
Even more ironic: your intolerant broad brush strokes are probably the sort of thing that enabled racism against blacks in the first place.
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On March 09 2012 17:59 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:54 Split. wrote:
So eSports and the community needs to mature, but at the same time we cannot forgive what someone has done in the past? I don't know how i feel about this... Part of me thinks until an employer like EG takes such a strong stand, the behaviour of the community, including casters and players, won't improve. The truth is, the acceptance of this kind of behaviour (nerd-rage in general) is just embarassing. How to you explain something like this to a huge sponsor, investor, or even a casual fan that this is 'acceptable' or 'part of the game'? It makes the gaming community look juvenile.
This, imo, is a 100% fine opinion. However, it's the reason why Alex fired orb. He fired him because of opinions regarding racism, not that it's just not an acceptable behavior to do once you're a "professional."
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On March 09 2012 18:06 pulsade13 wrote:
I'm glad someone in the community was scapegoated for this type of language because in my opinion it is unacceptable. It is very harsh for Orb because he was beginning to live a dream, but he had had a history of that it seems. There of plenty of offensive words in the English vocabulary without it coming down to race or sexuality. I hope one day people grow out of this childish type of behaviour.
I hope the same thing but unfortunately as long as the internet hides your identity I don't think the hate will go away.
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I don't think EG had much of a choice but Alex handled it well.
Btw I do think that the ones contacting the sponsors before EG had any chance to reply are hurting esport more than orb did with his out of line behavior
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EPT
