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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/
You live in one of the highest rated and free countries in the world, so you probably cannot fathom the history and severity of the word.
What's more appalling is how this "intelligent community" is so glaringly obtuse to the perversion of true justice here, and EG's clear focus on purely capitalist needs (but then again they are a business). Justice is not a one way street. Just because your typically uneducated, biased mob member fills social outlets with cries to destroy a man who made a racist remark does not excuse you from ignoring other prejudiced and hateful derision. Why don't we equally prostrate Idra?
"yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." Hardly analogous.
I respect EG's decision as a business, but the pomp and circumstance of upholding racial equality is nothing but pathos and, quite frankly, laughable. If people are to praise anything, praise their business acumen and not their dedication to moral fortitude.
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On March 09 2012 17:24 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:20 wizshaw2 wrote:I just read the circumstances. Drunk, cannon rushed 3 times and the word was used multiply times before he even said it back. The context wasn’t directed derogatorily but instead used largely without implicit meaning. Huge over reaction here. Fucking people with no lives tearing other people down. Pathetic. On March 09 2012 17:20 iloveAthene wrote:On March 09 2012 17:18 Heston wrote:On March 09 2012 17:16 Aquilla wrote:
I wonder what the reaction would be if Orb was black.... He wouldn't call someone a dumb nigger to demean them if he was black -_- Yeah, was gonna say I've never heard a black guy throw out the word nigger as an insult. He probably would've insulted dude's mother. Or faggot i suppose If anything its used interchangable as a way to greet others... yeah but that's "nigga" not "nigger"
As far as im concerned anybody saying ether of them in direct relation to each other is probably ignorant to where the word even came from as they are both derived from slang.
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On March 09 2012 17:27 jester- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:19 Otolia wrote:While Mr. Garfield is taking responsibility, I'd like us to reflect a moment of people from our community who while seemingly on the good side of things this time are using methods that are no less despicable than orb's language : Kendon Williams' twitterIf this horrible person is indeed the person who have sent EG sponsors letters of complain, we should put on the same spot as orb. Wow, that guy has serious issues.
true story, wow.
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I believe this is the wrong course of action and I will not continue to follow EG, noone is perfect everyone has dirt on the inside.
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Extremely well-written op.
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On March 09 2012 17:26 Chessz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ how can you say something so ignorant. there's a reason why certain terms are more "offensive" than others (even though offense is not the real issue), because the usage of slurs about oppressed groups rely on the actual history of their oppression for their meaning whereas people know Whites have been dominant on earth for a generally long time. It's the difference between making a joke that describes reality (satiric), and another that is absurd in nature. It's very convenient for you as a white person to say a slur against you wouldn't mean anything.
The world is bigger than the West, and there exist people even in the West and the rest of the world who are actually prejudiced against white people and not just blowing off steam with words after losing to some guy on ladder. I don't think there's a group on Earth that's immune from discrimination. So it's not an empty statement when a white person says "yeah, if someone used that phrase, I wouldn't care, especially if I knew he wasn't bigoted."
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On March 09 2012 17:28 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:27 jester- wrote:On March 09 2012 17:19 Otolia wrote:While Mr. Garfield is taking responsibility, I'd like us to reflect a moment of people from our community who while seemingly on the good side of things this time are using methods that are no less despicable than orb's language : Kendon Williams' twitterIf this horrible person is indeed the person who have sent EG sponsors letters of complain, we should put on the same spot as orb. Wow, that guy has serious issues. true story, wow.
Egads. Now THAT'S an overreaction.
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On March 09 2012 17:08 iliektocreep wrote:
I think that this is an overreaction. Orb casts professionally and what he does in his private streams is up to jim. Moreso, the pictures of him weren' even recent or after he was picked up by EG -_- He doesn't seem racist and whether he used "nigger" in a racist way is debatable.
Haters gonna hate.
+ Show Spoiler +
Orb does actually have some amount of influence on the community, and saying stuff like that on stream isn't setting a good example, nor is it representing EG very well. When he's hired by a big team like EG, it's not just his "private stream". He can't just say anything he wants there and get away with it.
Great post, Alex.
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On March 09 2012 17:30 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:26 Chessz wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ how can you say something so ignorant. there's a reason why certain terms are more "offensive" than others (even though offense is not the real issue), because the usage of slurs about oppressed groups rely on the actual history of their oppression for their meaning whereas people know Whites have been dominant on earth for a generally long time. It's the difference between making a joke that describes reality (satiric), and another that is absurd in nature. It's very convenient for you as a white person to say a slur against you wouldn't mean anything. The world is bigger than the West, and there exist people even in the West and the rest of the world who are actually prejudiced against white people and not just blowing off steam with words after losing to some guy on ladder. I don't think there's a group on Earth that's immune from discrimination. So it's not an empty statement when a white person says "yeah, if someone used that phrase, I wouldn't care, especially if I knew he wasn't bigoted."
The problem is that white's have almost exclusively always been the dominant race on the planet. So it comes from a different point of view when another race/culture doesn't like them. You are right that everyone is discriminated against, but whites are the minority (lol word choice?) when it comes to discrimination.
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On March 09 2012 17:05 jester- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 16:48 Lann555 wrote:On March 09 2012 16:21 jester- wrote:On March 09 2012 16:14 Heston wrote:On March 09 2012 16:07 jester- wrote:On March 09 2012 16:00 Heston wrote:On March 09 2012 15:55 jester- wrote:On March 09 2012 15:44 JackDT wrote:On March 09 2012 15:32 jester- wrote:
I'm honestly taken aback by how offended everyone appears to be over a word that lost it's true, hateful meaning to 95% of the worlds population decades ago. Given that you've seen evidence of many people being offended, will you revise your estimate that 95% of the worlds population lost the hateful meaning decades ago and adjust future usage to take this into account? Nope, because every single offended person is knee jerk over reacting to usage of the word that does not follow the hateful nature of the word I mentioned. Orb finding out the guy he's playing is black and proceeding to throw out derogatory terms as a result? Yeah, that's racism and using the word with hateful intent. Orb nerd raging and tossing out random curses before walking away from his computer? That's just a pissed off nerd. I bet you for every time he said the word nigger, he said the word faggot or dip shit or fuck face or something similar a hundred times. It's not a matter of trying to insult or demean black people, it's just a person getting pissed and throwing out curses. Ever heard someone hit themselves on the finger with a hammer (or similar situation) and yell out; "FUCKING COCK SUCKING..." Oh call the reddit police, he's demeaning gay people. Please. We have legislation in our country against people discriminating on others on terms of race, do you think someone in the media could use the word nigger in the same context orb did and say something along the lines "Oh by dumb nigger I only meant dumb person" would be a suitable excuse to not lose your job? Or on that matter do you think you would be able to get away with even saying nigger in any sort of context infront of the supreme court? Except this isn't someone in the media. When the incidents took place, this is some dude playing video games in his parents basement. Does that excuse the usage? No, it doesn't. Honestly, you're going to sit here and compare SC2 game chat to the supreme court? You can't say fuck in the supreme court either, are we going to start banning casters for saying fuck or shit? I don't even want to reply to this because you don't seem to understand. "Oh by dumb nigger I only meant dumb person" This isn't at all in any way what I'm saying. You know what a curse word is right? Different people have different curse words, period. There is a world of a difference between using a word as a curse against an anonymous individual than a directed hate attack. Well what i get from your posts is that Orbs use of nigger is equivalent to any swear, but that's wrong. Orb has gotten into trouble before for using the word nigger so he knew it was wrong and did it anyway. What bothers me is you're trying to defend the context in which he used the word nigger, which honestly I'm wondering why you would use the word nigger to demean someone. As a blackman I feel Orb IS a racist for using the word nigger to try and degrade someone. I never said it wasn't wrong. It is wrong, but it's not wrong to the extent where tens of thousands of community members should be up in arms with a full fledged head hunt about it. If you take the logic from your first sentence and apply it to the second last sentence, you will see that he isn't trying to demean anyone, he's just essentially yelling bullshit at someone who pissed him off. Like I said before and what you verified in your first sentence, the use of the word nigger here, from ORBS point of view, is no different than him calling someone an asshole (or similar). If he doesn't have the intelligence to see that the word 'nigger' has a far far bigger impact and social stigma then 'asshole' then he lacks the base-intelligence to be the face of a company. I can understand EG not wanting to get involved with someone who doesn't get simple stuff like that. If I heard one of my employees use such language, because they are pissed off, I'd fire them on the spot. Orb has shown himself to be a liability and now pays the price for it Our community should have at least some standards of decency. Just because it's online and losing on ladder is frustrating, doesn't suddenly make it ok to yell the most vile insults you can come up with at the time. In any other setting this stuff has severe consequences. You'd get your ass kicked, or lose your job, or get sued. Maybe it's political correctness, but it's how the world has worked for quite some time and Orb had...23 (I think) years to figure that out. He failed to notice the complete obvious and now paid the price for his own ignorance Not that it matters, but would you fire someone if you saw them call someone a nigger while playing a video game? Better yet, could you? Language in the workplace versus someone's private environment is a tough call. I agree that EG did need to do something, but only because he is essentially a public figure and what he does in his private life (assuming it becomes public, like this) does have an impact on his overall brand. I said multiple times already that it isn't acceptable, but that doesn't mean it warrants this ridiculous public outcry we have here. I find it interesting that you say; "You'd get your ass kicked, or lose your job, or get sued" with the assumptions that: 1. The individual is automatically going to become aggressive because of a word and result to violence (stereotyping a little bit yourself, eh?). Also implying the person saying the word is weak I guess? 2. The person saying the word is in the position to get fired and not do the firing. Get sued? Really? You would have to be one extreme individual to sue over being called a name in an unofficial environment, laws or no laws - I could understand this from an african american who was actually a slave, but no one else. Anywhoo, feels like beating a dead horse here and no amount of arguing is going to change anything. Everyone has been successful and the big bad orb is essentially finished. Watch your language everyone, or reddit's going to get you next!
"would you fire someone for calling someone a nigger while playing a video game" is such a disingenuous question in this situation. He wasn't just playing a video game - as a celebrity, laddering on the account named ORB, he should be aware that his actions might be seen by the public to represent his possible employers. And really, no one wants to be associated with people tossing that kind of grenade around.
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All BS... protecting sponsors, own interests and politics. Orb didnt do anything wrong; his situation was very contextual.
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On March 09 2012 17:30 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:26 Chessz wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ how can you say something so ignorant. there's a reason why certain terms are more "offensive" than others (even though offense is not the real issue), because the usage of slurs about oppressed groups rely on the actual history of their oppression for their meaning whereas people know Whites have been dominant on earth for a generally long time. It's the difference between making a joke that describes reality (satiric), and another that is absurd in nature. It's very convenient for you as a white person to say a slur against you wouldn't mean anything. The world is bigger than the West, and there exist people even in the West and the rest of the world who are actually prejudiced against white people and not just blowing off steam with words after losing to some guy on ladder. I don't think there's a group on Earth that's immune from discrimination. So it's not an empty statement when a white person says "yeah, if someone used that phrase, I wouldn't care, especially if I knew he wasn't bigoted."
Us white people in the United States at least don't give a shit what racially based slurs anyone calls us because we know we run the fucking world. You can't offend us by saying something about white people.
edit: it's a different story with black people here who've been harrassed and beaten by police while being called nigger. (which happens all the time, even today)
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On March 09 2012 17:32 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:08 iliektocreep wrote:
I think that this is an overreaction. Orb casts professionally and what he does in his private streams is up to jim. Moreso, the pictures of him weren' even recent or after he was picked up by EG -_- He doesn't seem racist and whether he used "nigger" in a racist way is debatable.
Haters gonna hate. + Show Spoiler +Orb does actually have some amount of influence on the community, and saying stuff like that on stream isn't setting a good example, nor is it representing EG very well. When he's hired by a big team like EG, it's not just his "private stream". He can't just say anything he wants there and get away with it. Great post, Alex.
Ok first nice image meme. But also, noone has provided incidents of him acting this way since his contract with EG, and so yes before this, it was his private stream and he wasn't representing anyone, except for MAYBE esv, as he casted their korean weekly, but afaik he wasn't payed or at least not alot.
EDIT: Oh but yes, I don't agree with him lying about the situation, but I think that was more a symptom of shock and hoping/praying things would blow over more than trying to be deceitful.
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On March 09 2012 17:27 jester- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:19 Otolia wrote:While Mr. Garfield is taking responsibility, I'd like us to reflect a moment of people from our community who while seemingly on the good side of things this time are using methods that are no less despicable than orb's language : Kendon Williams' twitterIf this horrible person is indeed the person who have sent EG sponsors letters of complain, we should put on the same spot as orb. Wow, that guy has serious issues.
Hah.. wow I wonder if that guy actually cares about the sc2 community? Given his aggressive and offensive comments I seriously doubt it. What kind of a person makes a twitter account just to harass community members?
Context: were talking about this joker - https://twitter.com/#!/kenniew
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On March 09 2012 17:32 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:08 iliektocreep wrote:
I think that this is an overreaction. Orb casts professionally and what he does in his private streams is up to jim. Moreso, the pictures of him weren' even recent or after he was picked up by EG -_- He doesn't seem racist and whether he used "nigger" in a racist way is debatable.
Haters gonna hate. + Show Spoiler +Orb does actually have some amount of influence on the community, and saying stuff like that on stream isn't setting a good example, nor is it representing EG very well. When he's hired by a big team like EG, it's not just his "private stream". He can't just say anything he wants there and get away with it. Great post, Alex.
your complety ignoring the fact that these people dug hard to pull up a 1+ year old screen shot from one random game. since that time orb has mellowed and calmed himself down ALOOOOT. i know this because i was a regular and avid watcher of his stream. but u biased assholes would never know that because you only go off of a single outdated screenshot as evidence.
im not denying that orb has said alot of stupid things in the past, (not like i care since i watch destiny stream regularly and he says offensive things 24/7 including sexist things. hell, HE GRABED A PORNSTARS BOOBS NUMEROUS TIMES LIVE ON STREAM.) but the ammount of backlash and heat he is getting is uncalled for.
like i said, both idra and destiny are much bigger influences to the community, but no one bats an eye when destiny basically sexually harassed mia rose live on stream by grabbing and feeling her boobs? utter bull shit. TL STILL has destiny stream on the featured list FFS despite that event.
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On March 09 2012 17:33 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 17:30 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 17:26 Chessz wrote:On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/ how can you say something so ignorant. there's a reason why certain terms are more "offensive" than others (even though offense is not the real issue), because the usage of slurs about oppressed groups rely on the actual history of their oppression for their meaning whereas people know Whites have been dominant on earth for a generally long time. It's the difference between making a joke that describes reality (satiric), and another that is absurd in nature. It's very convenient for you as a white person to say a slur against you wouldn't mean anything. The world is bigger than the West, and there exist people even in the West and the rest of the world who are actually prejudiced against white people and not just blowing off steam with words after losing to some guy on ladder. I don't think there's a group on Earth that's immune from discrimination. So it's not an empty statement when a white person says "yeah, if someone used that phrase, I wouldn't care, especially if I knew he wasn't bigoted." The problem is that white's have almost exclusively always been the dominant race on the planet. So it comes from a different point of view when another race/culture doesn't like them. You are right that everyone is discriminated against, but whites are the minority (lol word choice?) when it comes to discrimination.
That doesn't make the actual injustices any less appalling. For instance, transgendered have been ostracized from women's support institutions for things like domestic abuse, but what's the point in saying "well there aren't that many transgendered people"? The point is in this case, someone having a tantrum in a ladder game and calling everyone and their mother a faggot doesn't seem to stack up against real discrimination and abuse. You have to make the argument that the former engenders the latter, and that's a point people dispute.
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I honestly don't really feel like being a fan of EG any more after reading that.
I think race/racism is something you are extremely passionate about. I also disagree with a lot of what you said about n_ being the most racist work and the fact that you have strong beliefs on who should and should not be able to use n_a also I feel very strongly against.
Here are my beliefs, if you want an explanation as to why I disagree:
I in fact think racism is only really a big deal because people make it to be a big deal. If you have seen the South Park episode about motorcyclists being fags (hopefully you have? is this a weird assumption to make) then you'll know they basically argue that words change definitions, and are basically just used because they are good-sounding word. The cite like 12+ different definitions faggot has gone through, and that it has no more link to homophobia than it does to any of the other archaic meanings -- at that it's only homophobic if the intent is homophobic (i'm sure homophobes who use faggot use it with unimaginably intense hatred); other people just use it because it sounds funny.
I think the same is true for n_ -- people use it because it's a dirty-sounding word, similar to why "cunt" is so appealing to some people. I don't think people have race in mind when they call someone a n_, they just want to use as offensive of a word as possible to exclaim in a moment of intense emotion (not to justify any emotions, just saying, it's not out of any racist context).
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What a terrible overreaction, this community just got alot more disgusting to me.
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On March 09 2012 17:13 Drorctopus wrote:
People are offended way too quickly. I mean every black person could call me some offensive term for white people(whatever that is) and I wouldn't give a shit if it happened. Just stop being butthurt so quickly :/
That may be because your entire family history isn't entwined with slavery at the hands of black people. Really, you should stop and think about that.
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People make mistakes when they are angry. I do not believe orb thinks of himself in any way better because of his race and he used the word to express his anger and shock his opponent in moment of frustration and anger. I do hope he will be forgiven by the majority of the community at some point.
But i do not feel EG:s response was out of line, if someone behaved this badly publicly in any other sports the outcome would have been as bad if not worse. I actually wouldnt mind some of the other players being more professianal and well behaved as well. Someone posted that idra has made death wishes to some of the other players and i have no idea if this is true or not, but something like that shouldnt be brushed off too easily either.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.zap2it.com/images/tv-EP00445691/according-to-jim-6.jpg)
