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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 15:09 TheWorldToCome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:04 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
You said orb was on a contract. Did that contract state, "If evidence is brought up that in the past before you signed this contract you used offensive racial language than this contract is void and you will be removed." Or something along those lines? I don't understand how something that happened in the past can directly cause someone to be fired unless he is well aware of it and lies up front about it to secure the position. Explain someone, as it really does boggle me. Imagine if you just got hired at best buy, and within the week they fired you because you got fired at a Frys for calling customers "faggots" and "niggers".
Frys and Best Buy are both electronic stores for those who don't know. Then that would be fine. A company shouldn't have to hire you if they think you have racist tendancies. That would be bad busines for them since it's highly likely that a portion of their customers no doubt are black or gay people. Edit: Of course what you do in your past is going to effect how people percieve you in the present! Like seriously what world do you live in?
It has nothing to do with being racist. Its all about context. I have never heard someone say they hate people that are actually retarded (irl) when someone uses the phrase "retard".
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the only good thing about this league was orb and incontrol casting together... ill just have to watching something else. i wish IPLTAC wasn't over that comp is awesome the teams are boss every match. Idra does the same thing and he is still in EG? i will be contacting your sponsers to complain about idra. you treat orb like this then you should treat everyone like this imo so i will voice my opinion to your sponsers. orb is top bloke very sad that you fired him straight away no warnings like idra gets.
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There are too many posts already for me to see if this has been brought up so please forgive me if it has.
This behavior is well-known and typical from Orb. Why does EG act suprised now? Did they just not know and if they didnt, why not? Did they not care because it did not effect their pocket at that time?
Did they not do their "due diligence" on this business venture? I don't think EG can wash their hands of this and should take some blame.
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On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."
"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."
-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.
Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'.
Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!"
Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!?
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On March 09 2012 15:11 Yaqoob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:09 _MaKo_ wrote:On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there. I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that? Orb lied about it online and to his employer; Idra didn't?
Alex specifically stated that the reason Orb was fired was for his racist comments, not for lying.
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On March 09 2012 15:04 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
You said orb was on a contract. Did that contract state, "If evidence is brought up that in the past before you signed this contract you used offensive racial language than this contract is void and you will be removed." Or something along those lines? I don't understand how something that happened in the past can directly cause someone to be fired unless he is well aware of it and lies up front about it to secure the position. Explain someone, as it really does boggle me. Imagine if you just got hired at best buy, and within the week they fired you because you got fired at a Frys for calling customers "faggots" and "niggers".
Frys and Best Buy are both electronic stores for those who don't know.
It's funny because the situation you explain as supposedly unlikely seems totally realistic to me. They probably had a contract that he could be let go whenever they wanted for any reason.
I dunno how I feel. If orb only did these actions before being hired by EG I feel it's a bit unfortunate. If it happened after he gained employment with them I can see EG's reason for letting him go as perfectly reasonable.
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On March 09 2012 15:11 Yaqoob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:09 _MaKo_ wrote:On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there. I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that? Orb lied about it online and to his employer; Idra didn't?
There's no mention of that in the reason for orb's dismissal.
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On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world? Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.
To some degree, genocide, apartheid, and Nazism were all based on racism
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On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex. You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others. Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.
This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism.
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On March 09 2012 13:17 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:16 Zorkmid wrote:On March 09 2012 13:14 bucckevin wrote:
Is it that big of a deal, really? Does this guy not deserve a second chance?
If he had come clean about it, I'm sure that he might have gotten a second chance. His lies killed him. Oh yeah totally, I mean I'm sure you've never told a lie your whole life. I'm with you man.
Not when it meant my job. Get a clue.
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On March 09 2012 15:08 lucasfz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:52 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.
Kid, welcome to reality. People can get fired nowadays for lewd or inappropriate photos of themselves at a party in college on FB. "acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop..." *Sigh*. The absurdly simplistic (and pretty much dead wrong) views expressed in so many posts here reflect the nature of this community as composed by so many youths who don't know any better. Basic norms of appropriateness indicate that this is a clean-cut and obvious "NO" for professionalism - hell, the OP does a great job of explaining, but I guess it can't be helped that some fools can't bring themselves to read it in its entirety. EG has the right to do whatever they want because they are a business i never said that, and don't get condescending with me just because you went to college and think your smart, and nothing i said was wrong, people shouldn't get offended when it is an empty word not directed towards them or even apply to them, please get your condescending attitude out of here, your not better then me sorry bro
Well the context of Orbs use of the word nigger is pretty concerning to me considering he called him a "dumb nigger", and I think it's a good thing white people aren't turning a blind eye to it.
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On March 09 2012 15:12 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:11 Yaqoob wrote:On March 09 2012 15:09 _MaKo_ wrote:On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there. I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that? Orb lied about it online and to his employer; Idra didn't? Alex specifically stated that the reason Orb was fired was for his racist comments, not for lying. https://twitter.com/#!/ottersareneat/status/177986577451057152
I didn't know that. Thanks.
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On March 09 2012 14:23 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. This is just... have you ever said the word "nigger" in the hearing of a group of black people? How did they react?
First, I don't agree that it isn't a big deal. However, I have heard the "N-word" being used in the hearing of a group of black people before, but mostly predominantly said by other black people. Given what Alex Garfield said, I'm really curious to what his opinion on that. Would that still be acceptable?
I'm going to go into this issue a little bit and my opinions on it, so bear with me.
I mean, I do not condone or agree with the use of the word. However, if it makes sense, the "n-word" is sometimes used between black people as a form of cultural connection? I don't know how to phrase it properly. In general, the idea that it's okay to make "racist jokes" about a certain race if you're of that racial descent.
For example, I've a Chinese American and I know of quite a few other Chinese-Americans who got upset about the "Chink in the Armor" thing run by ESPN during Linsanity. Personally, I'm more easy going and don't pay as much attention to these things. However, Chinese Americans sometimes make certain "racial jokes" all in good fun when we're with each other that would probably definitely not be okay as in something that would definitely be considered racist/some people would take offense to the comments.
I saw a recent video on ESPN where Steven A. Smith ( an African American journalist) discussed this racial issue, though in regards to other African-Americans. Though I know some people would say he's not the most credible source (hence his nickname, Screamin' A Smith), he did make some valid points that mirrored a point Bill Cosby made before that was quite controversial. Basically, it's that even though it's important to be sensitive, nowadays it seems that people have become too politically correct at times. Even though racism is still out there, but more covert as Alex pointed out, people should also be more understanding in that mistakes happen and try to differentiate between actual racist moments and misunderstandings or heat of the moment things. He said this in context to the fact that the ESPN writer who came up with the title "Chink in the Armor" was fired. His point was that given how politically correct people have become, but how diverse and multicultural the united states and the world has become, there needs to be an end to this cycle of "witch-hunting" so to say.
Sometimes, people aren't aware if something is offensive to a particular group of people. Sometimes, as in the case of Orb, it seems like he got in the heat of the moment and was inebriated, so he said some things that he shouldn't have. However, we should try to differentiate if someone is actually being racist vs. a mistake someone made. For example, if the person who made an offensive remark was informed that it was offensive to a particular group, AND continued to use it, then that person should definitely be punished. Similar reasoning can be applied to Orb's situation. Note, I do not agree nor do I condone what Orb did. However, can all those people who have been calling for Orb's head really say they have never said anything racist or offensive to a particular group at all? Not just towards the black community. As an Asian American, I kind of get annoyed that all the focus when it comes to racism has been about the African American community and I am kind of glad that the recent Linsanity has raised this issue. A big factor probably has to do with the fact that that specific community has been the most vocal when it comes to racism. But can people say they haven't said anything that can be offensive at all? It is a bit of a double standard when people can call for others heads yet still continue to act and speak in a way that betrays their apparently strong views with regards to "being offensive." Like, there are many asian stereotypes that seem to be ingrained in our culture that people just seem to accept, and I'm sure that's true for many other groups. Not that I'm saying racism against black people still don't exist. But recently, it's the homosexual community that's been increasingly vocal and people are starting to become aware that certain things they say can be offensive. I'm sure many of you have said "oh, this is gay", "quit being a fag", or something of the sort. This can be taken as offensive to the gay community even though I'm sure most of you weren't intentionally being offensive or thinking about that when you say that. It's just such a common slang that we don't think about things like that all the time.
Yes, we all need to be more aware and correct, but we also need to stop this perpetual and vicious cycle of going on witch hunts and just becoming "too politically correct" and anal about things if that makes sense. Plus, it will stop giving people excuses. This is a small side rant but let's be honest, things are not as bad in general (and in particular, for African Americans ) as they used to be say 100 years ago. I get really angry when black people continue to blatantly pull the racist card over and over as a reason why they can't be successful. Yes, I understand that there's a trickle down effect from what happened before, but when will the excuses stop since by this logic, it can continue forever. Plus, they aren't the only race that's been oppressed yet they are still the most vocal ones about using those excuses when racism/ignorance towards other groups are more prevalent now. Biggest example is affirmative action, which I personally don't agree with but that's a different issue.
And there was a recent SNL skit that people should see that was quite the damning social commentary. Basically, it showed these reporters who when discussing Lin were cracking all kinds of asian racist jokes and stereotypes and it was all good. But, when one of the reporters did the same thing for a different black player, everyone got incredibly offended. I personally don't get offended easily but I find it funny when I see some black guys will straight up just insult people in their face whether it be calling them crackers, chink, spics, whatever but get incredibly offended when some black comment is made in retaliation. I have seen examples of that and yes those particular people are probably looking for trouble but just in general, it seems like issues seem to be more likely blown out of proportion when a racist comment was made in particular towards the African American community.
Do you think this situation would be as big as it is if instead of the "n-word", Orb had used something else like "fag" or "chink"? Think about it.
Anyways, back to the original topic. I was personally very surprised that there was "this side" to orb when I first read about it. My only exposure to him from before was some of his casting, and I always thought he was super professional. But we are all humans. It definitely sucks that he had to be fired, and I don't agree with what he did. It's just an unfortunate situation and I can understand why EG did what they did, even if I thought it was a little bit harsh and trying to set an example.
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On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex. You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others. Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.
lol, these quotes are golden.
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On March 09 2012 15:13 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex. You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others. Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism. This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism.
Is a christian killing a muslim racism?
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The amount of white people defending their "right" to call others nigger, or how nigger really isn't a bad word(according to them), is frightening.
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Good decision Alex and EG. Everyone in here calling this an overreaction are either uneducated, or simply an unknowing bigot.
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I feel that the comments are forgivable, but the lies and accusations of slander are not (that he made on reddit. Good call by Evil Genius', liars are a plague that need to be weeded out of the community.
That being said, I hope that Orb has learned his lesson and stops trying to lie out of problems.
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On March 09 2012 15:12 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."
"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."
-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.
Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'. Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!" Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!?
This. The self-indulged, narcissitic, "I'm out for myself and my liberties" ideology is a rather weak artifice to use as a standing point for any defense... it's like talking to a mirror, or a wall... you know, you're not getting anywhere. Orb/Destiny used the n-word for the same purposes--'leet' speak, Internet rage mode and probably had too much chocolate milk before thinking clearly.
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On March 09 2012 15:14 Argolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:13 ffdestiny wrote:On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex. You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others. Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism. This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism. Is a christian killing a muslim racism?
only if he/she does it for racist reasons.
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EPT
