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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny
If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?)
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On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb?
n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
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Orb gets to choose what he says, and EG chooses to respond however they feel. Seems completely reasonable to me, especially if EG was getting flak from their sponsors.
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Alex garfield you literally make me sick to my stomache. between all the inside info i know about you and your shady business in counterstrike its fucking UNBEILEVABLE to me that you are the manager of EG. Are you really going to fire someone for something they said BEFORE you hired thtem? Bringing up blackmaba was really cute, trying to show you are accepting of other races or whatever your derp logic is. But your more offended than black people which is fucking stupid. It doesnt apply to you.
Im to tired to rage. But i sincerly hope that you get hit by a bus some day. your just a passive aggressive dudebra with a degree in political science and you think you can run a team. eat shit and die.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 09 2012 15:19 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?)
What's racist about saying a word? I have never understood why people pussy foot over certain words, no matter if it's used in a friendly context.
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On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny
Matt Stone and Trey Parker explain this to white people.
Stan: Don't you see, Kyle?? I don't get it!
[Stan smiles, then walks up to Token] Token, I get it now. I don't get it. I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but, I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to have somebody use the N word. I don't get it.
Token: Now you get it, Stan. [smiles]
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On March 09 2012 15:22 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 ffdestiny wrote:On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?) What's racist about saying a word? I have never understood why people pussy foot over certain words, no matter if it's used in a friendly context.
Facepalm...
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I still think this is ridiculous.
Well, gl to orb in the future.
It's nice to see a young kid's reputation can be completely destroyed by a bunch of kids on the internet with nothing better to do than debate over screenshotted ladder games. Alex, not only do I think you made the wrong decision, you also ADMIT to having an inherent bias in making this decision based upon your area of study. That's absolutely laughable.
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On March 09 2012 15:17 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:14 fidelity wrote:
The amount of white people defending their "right" to call others nigger, or how nigger really isn't a bad word(according to them), is frightening. Happens all the time in the playgrounds of the white surburbs of any middle-class area... it's like a talking point for any group of white teenagers.
Honestly...?
It's not even that people aren't saying nigger isn't a bad word. They are arguing the context here. It's totally and completely different if you walk up to a black guy and call him a dumb nigger than what orb did and use it as a replaceable swear word against an anonymous opponent on the internet.
This is only a big deal because.. ah forget it. The SC2 community has this extremist politically correctness that is downright maddening sometimes.
I'm sorry if I'm being offensive, but I've NEVER seen so many cry babies in my life.
edit: there are a large number of rational and logical individuals however, which is refreshing.
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On March 09 2012 15:19 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?)
If the argument was good the first time there is nothing wrong about rehashing. Destiny exemple is actually simple and logical, there is actual racism and there is thing like the Orb Drama.
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On March 09 2012 15:22 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny Matt Stone and Trey Parker explain this to white people. Stan: Don't you see, Kyle?? I don't get it! [Stan smiles, then walks up to Token] Token, I get it now. I don't get it. I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but, I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to have somebody use the N word. I don't get it. Token: Now you get it, Stan. [smiles]
I think you missed the satire.
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I don't really want to address your post, but to your last point, perhaps the most important one about financial impact. Alex made it clear in his OP that he felt financial pressure (all the people contacting sponsers), so on that point I would say yes, the language had a potentially adverse effect upon the company.
It's quite possible I'm wrong but wasn't that because people were bitching that EG cut Orb, not that they didn't?
edit: on re-reading the last bit of OP you're probably correct there, that is a more justifiable reason for a cut. Why the hell didn't he just say that EG has standards of professionalism its sponsors expect, this was too significant a threat to that to pass up and so they took the stated action.
Done. No hopelessly flawed and verging on hypocritical wall of text required.
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On March 09 2012 15:23 Flonomenalz wrote:
I still think this is ridiculous.
Well, gl to orb in the future.
It's nice to see a young kid's reputation can be completely destroyed by a bunch of kids on the internet with nothing better to do than debate over screenshotted ladder games. Alex, not only do I think you made the wrong decision, you also ADMIT to having an inherent bias in making this decision based upon your area of study. That's absolutely laughable.
An inherent bias against racism?
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On March 09 2012 15:18 Mr.Rager wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:12 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."
"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."
-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.
Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'. Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!" Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!? Lol? The guy is not even trying to say what they said is heroic. He's trying to say they prove a point and people shouldn't be so worked up about this issue. I'm pretty sure they don't give a flying fuck about being "badass" or "gangsta"; they use the words they use because it expresses their emotions. That's why you use more words than others, right?
How about extending your vocabulary, and exercising some self-discipline.
"Expresses their emotions." Please. That's what you can say about babies when they start crying uncontrollably in restaurants. These guys are supposed to be adults that participate in society. That includes being articulate, in control of your emotions and cognizant of other people's perceptions of you.
I'm don't think that Orb is racist. I think he behaved childishly, and EG's decision, while uncompromising, is justifiable.
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
You know you can type the whole word ou, especially if you are gonna type out the word faggot right next to it.. Saying shit like n---r is rather pointless don't you think? Everyone knows what word you are saying yet you somehow try to hide it. The reason the word nigger has so much "power" is because of people like you who treat the word like it's the most offensive word in the worldm when it has no qualities that make it any different than any other slur or insult. it's an offensive word. Stop treating it like it's any different than the rest of them.
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respect the op; sometimes these sorts of decisions need to be made
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
And once upon a time, "nigger" was looked at as more acceptable than many other terms in America. Just because "faggot" isn't accepted as being as vicious as "nigger" doesn't mean it isn't. Terms like this become charged with hatred over time unless we choose to make them socially unacceptable.
You also need to remember that this is the internet, not America, people from all over the world, difference races, ethnic background, and religions, post here. Not just Americans.
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On March 09 2012 15:22 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 ffdestiny wrote:On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?) What's racist about saying a word? I have never understood why people pussy foot over certain words, no matter if it's used in a friendly context.
Well when people were calling me a nigger in jr.high I think they were trying to slander me in context of my colour, does that help you understand?
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Really dissapointed in the 'SC2 community', ruining a guy's career for spewing an almost meaningless word on ladder way before the EG gig.
Time to take a break I guess, at least until all this crap is forgotten.
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EPT
