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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 15:18 Alacast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:12 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."
"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."
-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.
Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'. Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!" Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!? I don't recall where in my post I lauded or even mentioned Orb or Destiny, and I don't consider their actions heroic, I consider them immature and fueled by irrational anger. It doesn't change the fact that stigmatizing words and actions gives them power to offend. Also, I hope you're not hating on Dune, I found the series (all 6 books) quite well written and interesting; these two quotes happen to come from the fourth book, I realize there could be some confusion with my calling Frank the "God Emperor" of Dune, which is not what I meant. It's simply the book's name.
Duly noted sir.
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
the plain truth where i come from is that all derogatory words are considered offensive to the same degree as each other towards the respective race and sexuality that the word is associated with.
In simple terms, if you are gonna write n--r instead of the actual spelling, you ought to do the same for the f word that is offensive to gay people. Basic integrity.
And that brings me back to my original question: how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb?
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On March 09 2012 15:26 Heston wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:22 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:19 ffdestiny wrote:On March 09 2012 15:17 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.' "Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends." http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny If Destiny wants to come over here and attempt a defense, which he so usually fails at hard because of his blatant limited perspective, that's great... but right now you're just re-hashing, and re-hashing. And he routinely uses logical fallacies (the co-worker example) to justify his use of racist words to sidetrack HIS actual behavior (and justify it within himself... guilt free?) What's racist about saying a word? I have never understood why people pussy foot over certain words, no matter if it's used in a friendly context. Well when people were calling me a nigger in jr.high I think they were trying to slander me in context of my colour, does that help you understand?
It was used in a racist context there, so I get it.
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
Ya making fun of gay people is pretty socially exceptable at this point.
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On March 09 2012 14:23 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. This is just... have you ever said the word "nigger" in the hearing of a group of black people? How did they react?
I know you weren't asking my input, but I have, plenty of times, although admittedly I already knew most of them (I wouldn't go up to a random group of any ethnicity and call them anything if I wasn't pretty sure how they'd react as I'm not an idiot).
They thought it was hilarious because they were capable of discerning context and meaning, and because most white people think black people turn into murderous beasts if the word is uttered by a white person within earshot of them, which when you think about it, is an incredibly racist assumption itself.
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On March 09 2012 15:25 Argolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here. You know you can type the whole word ou, especially if you are gonna type out the word faggot right next to it.. Saying shit like n---r is rather pointless don't you think? Everyone knows what word you are saying yet you somehow try to hide it. The reason the word nigger has so much "power" is because of people like you who treat the word like it's the most offensive word in the worldm when it has no qualities that make it any different than any other slur or insult. it's an offensive word. Stop treating it like it's any different than the rest of them.
That's so phony. We only feel like we have lisence to somehow unempower it because we are on a anonymous predominantly white forum.
It's a tired example but if it's really "just an insult" then I suggest you head to the south side of chicago, hang out down on 90th street and call someone the n word when they do something stupid.
Quit pretending we can just hide behind the internet our whole lives.
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I find this to be a very disappointing overreaction from EG. Orb was fired because he raged and called people, whose race he did not know, "nigger" on ladder last year. Orb did not do anything wrong while working for EG. If Orb calling people "nigger" on ladder was such a large issue, why was Orb hired in the first place? Not doing your homework is unprofessional.
EG should have either:
1. Not hired Orb in the first place
2. Fired Orb the second he did something borderline rage/racist while working for them.
The way things turned out I find EG to be entirely at fault. Their actions were unprofessional, and I do not like that. I do not like that I now have to find out how to support Machine, DeMuslim and Incontrol with out supporting EG as an organization.
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This isn't really much of an overreaction. I don't have input on how offensive the things Orb said were, but you can't get around sponsors with this kind of behaviour.
Imagine how it looks when someone shows a picture of the things Orb said, and follow up with "this is the kid Intel is paying to talk". Imagine how it looks to anyone outside of the scene with no context of how angry ladder can make you or who Orb is.
Time to wise up. Like big tournaments, professionally sponsored players, high quality broadcasts, and the Starcraft scene in general? These things all cost a lot of money. Money come from sponsors. Stop making yourself un-sponsorable
Or at least stop associating yourself publicly with things you may regret in the future because with the internet: once it's out there, it's out there forever.
Seriously, I totally understand when people say Orb should get a second chance, what he said was not that bad, he's not really racist etc. but can you really not see how ridiculously bad this looks to people who lack context? You don't think it's expected that he was held accountable for the things he said?
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On March 09 2012 15:30 7Sevii wrote:
I find this to be a very disappointing overreaction from EG. Orb was fired because he raged and called people, whose race he did not know, "nigger" on ladder last year. Orb did not do anything wrong while working for EG. If Orb calling people "nigger" on ladder was such a large issue, why was Orb hired in the first place? Not doing your homework is unprofessional.
EG should have either:
1. Not hired Orb in the first place
2. Fired Orb the second he did something borderline rage/racist while working for them.
The way things turned out I find EG to be entirely at fault. Their actions were unprofessional, and I do not like that. I do not like that I now have to find out how to support Machine, DeMuslim and Incontrol with out supporting EG as an organization.
The most recent time he used nigger as an insult on ladder was a week~ ago.
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Thank god...about damn time....
Been saying for awhile that profanity on streams (massive profanities as in the "N" word) should be kicked off...glad to see EG agreeing with me
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France3195 Posts
The only thing that's sad about this story is people going directly to the sponsors. Wtf guys? What is wrong with you peoPle??
Other than that? Cleaning the scene from White trash using words that a considered highly provocative in the US on the ladder or anywhere else?Fuck yeah. No it's not fuckin ok to use that word.
It doesn't matter if YOU think that he use of this word has evolved, if orb isn't really discriminative is his thoughts and way of life. You aspire to be a public figure, than grow the fuck up and learn to be one.
You want a bigger e sports scene? Well then fucking act like it.
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On March 09 2012 14:57 H0bgawblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:49 Empirimancer wrote:
Wonderful! Now every public figure in the SC2 community that's not self-employed will have to carefully control his language, not just in situations where's he's expected to act professionally, but also when he's just laddering for his own enjoyment. Soon enough being a public SC2 figure will be like being a politician, everything they do will be scrutinized for signs of immoral behavior.
Yes, racist and homophobic language is disgusting. No, firing someone over the use of said disgusting language outside of his job is not a good idea. Is this the SC2 scene you people really want to create?
Orb is obviously a lying little shit, and I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like him, and EG has obviously been subjected to enormous pressure to fire him, so I don't really blame them, but this era of enforced political correctness that's beginning to dawn upon SC2 professional gaming is just sickening.
Serious question here. You don't think that some pressures on sc2 public figures aren't needed for it to grow as an e-sport?
Nope. I doubt there's a single person on this planet who would have started watching SC2 tournaments but didn't because and only because s/he's heard a caster or player use a racial slur. If there's something that's holding SC2 back, that's not it.
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I really don't agree with Alex on his personal stance, but it's understandable completely from a business perspective.
But to be truly offended by things such as the CS incidence is a direction I truly hope we aren't headed. Everything is about context. Sometimes people who are offended by derogatory terms slipped in here and there need to suck things up if they get hurt. You have to look at intention (clearly Orb's intentions weren't racist, as mentioned, but also they were meant as a means to signify disgust, so I'm not saying this particular case is excusable). If we're in a situation where the term used in a joking context, someone might argue it's distasteful, but c'mon, sometimes "distasteful" jokes are funny, just not in a business environment. I've said my fair share of "nigger" jokes, but being a minority (or half) myself, I've felt discrimination. I've been called a chink when someone has meant to piss me off, and I've been called it as a joke. When it concerns the later, it doesn't phase me whatsoever.
The fact that Alex is doing this for nigger, but not faggot actually is what's offensive to me. The thing is, homophobia, unlike racism is still incredibly prevalent in our society today. If anything, there should be a stricter stance against the use of the word faggot, in my eyes, simply because the ongoing struggle exists for their acceptance into mainstream society. The same cannot be said for Black people, or at least to the same extent. If you've given IdrA chances, why not give Orb chances?
And I'm trying to be impartial here, I loved watching IdrA since the beta, and utterly loathed Orb and never understood why he was featured. But I don't think he was given the correct punishment. All I've seen is that Alex is *more* tolerant of faggot than nigger, when homosexuals are still actively discriminated against by a large portion of our society and blacks (relatively) aren't. To be specific, *more* tolerant simply meaning he probably gave a few (even if harsh) warnings first concerning usage of the word before actively taking action to terminate employment. Would Alex have reacted the same way if Orb had just used faggot instead? Doubtful. He's biased due to his degree. And that offends me.
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wonder what else you can be made to do if people start mailing sponsors...
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People seem to toss around that "respect" word like a drunken sailor, so I'll just say that although I like Orb as a caster, I Alex Garfield has gained me as a fan.
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
Oh man it's hilarious how you deem two words equal and yet only censor one.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing, but I feel like faggot is more of a swear word than a derogatory statement. I know several gay people who call people faggots all day. The overwhelming vast majority of people I've ever heard say the word faggot use it as a descriptive word for someone that pisses them off/they dont like/ etc.
I'm honestly taken aback by how offended everyone appears to be over a word that lost it's true, hateful meaning to 95% of the worlds population decades ago.
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On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb? n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.
Your post clearly defines how myopic and ignorant American attitudes are towards gross injustices. Women, homosexuals, religions, and the handicapped have been ridiculed and subjected for millennia. But now we bring up an extremely sensitive AMERICAN travesty and people like you have to start raising their voice in order to defend just how unbecoming your American ancestors were. Let's be honest, you clearly cannot comprehend that all gross injustices must be dealt with equal levels of criticism and vitality.
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Oh my god, I can't believe there's this many angry responses towards the OP. Come on (some) guys, it's a pretty cool and neat statement, stop bitching for the sake of bitching.
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On March 09 2012 15:30 7Sevii wrote:
I find this to be a very disappointing overreaction from EG. Orb was fired because he raged and called people, whose race he did not know, "nigger" on ladder last year. Orb did not do anything wrong while working for EG. If Orb calling people "nigger" on ladder was such a large issue, why was Orb hired in the first place? Not doing your homework is unprofessional.
EG should have either:
1. Not hired Orb in the first place
2. Fired Orb the second he did something borderline rage/racist while working for them.
The way things turned out I find EG to be entirely at fault. Their actions were unprofessional, and I do not like that. I do not like that I now have to find out how to support Machine, DeMuslim and Incontrol with out supporting EG as an organization.
How are EG's actions unprofessional? They listened to their sponsors and fired an employee. That's how professional teams conduct business. Granted, hiring Orb in the first place may have been an unwise decision. But I wouldn't call that unprofessional.
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