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Orb Dismissed from Evil Geniuses Broadcasts - Page 58

Forum Index > SC2 General
3626 CommentsPost a Reply
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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.

In short, be smart.

Alex comments on Idra:


Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038

Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST
yawnoC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States3704 Posts
March 09 2012 06:16 GMT
#1141
I still think orb should have been let go more for lying to EG rather than using the actually language.
GG - UNiVeRsE is the best player in the WORLD
ffdestiny
Profile Joined September 2010
United States773 Posts
March 09 2012 06:16 GMT
#1142
On March 09 2012 15:14 Argolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:13 ffdestiny wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:
the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality.


Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?

Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism?


I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.


You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others.

Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.


This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism.


Is a christian killing a muslim racism?


It's usually classified as killing.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
March 09 2012 06:16 GMT
#1143
On March 09 2012 15:09 _MaKo_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:
On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping

then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not

lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest


Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there.


I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that?

actually we really dont know what punishment Idra has received. Alex could be fining him every time he gets out of line for all we know.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
yoten
Profile Joined January 2011
United States57 Posts
March 09 2012 06:16 GMT
#1144
On March 09 2012 15:11 GroundLuminous wrote:
I am completely in this camp. Orb didn't even say these things as an EG employee (or under EG's employ, however you want to put it). In fact, that was Sir Scoot's initial promise on the most recent Live On Three cast. He didn't do it under EG's employ, even if he were lying, and therefore would very obviously get a final, absolute warning that none of his previous behavior would be tolerated now. Scoots bleated on and on about this, with Wheat enthusiastically taking his side, and he still did recently on twitter. And yet they go ahead and dismiss Orb! How is it possible?

How is it possible they dismiss Orb, who never even erred as an Evil Geniuses caster, and simply "talk to" to Idra over his use of the word F-----t as a member and (arguably standard bearer) of EG? I imagine they talked to Huk to over his use of N---a on his tweet, right? It wasn't used as an insult, and had an "A" at the end, but it's pretty equally offensive. How come Huk and Idra got the sort of rational and measured "warnings" that SirScoots promised but failed to deliver to Orb?

The answer's obvious. It's a financial play to save sponsors and appeal to the οι πολλοι on reddit. It reaks of hypocrisy, greed, and sanctimonious nonsense. If I could, I would boycott EG and everything they're involved in, but they seem to have spread everywhere and I don't think it's possible to without giving up on the SC2 community. Oh well. Hope everyone feels happy with themselves!





Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 14:31 shockaslim wrote:
I honestly think they should give my dude another chance. Sure, he shouldn't of said that stuff, and as a black person I was mildly offended, but look at other players that rage (which is what is was) and not a fucking thing happens to them? People make mistakes, toss dude a bone, he CLEARLY cares about Starcraft 2, and I don't think this little slip up should stop him from pursuing that.


I don't think they would have fired him if he hadn't lied about it when they asked him, or if he hadn't lied to and insulted the community about it.
"Do with my minions as you will, Cerebrate. They will serve you unquestioningly. Go and bring swift wrath to all who would oppose the Swarm."
Soma Cruz
Profile Joined July 2011
United States209 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1145
On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant.


Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.'


"Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "stop talking about racism", I'm really meaning to say "stop talking about stupid little things that only share superficial aspects with things that are truly racist". A guy saying "nigger" on a stream to describe what he perceives to be as a stupid/cheesy opponent isn't nearly as bad as a white boss referring to a black coworker as a "nigger" with some other friends."

http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoDestiny
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 06:17:48
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1146
Dear lord the naiveness in that OP... oaaahhh. It basically reads in TLDR mode:

1) Racism exists and is bad, this is generally accepted (somehow this took like three paragraphs...)
2) However, in particular, this one type of racism is more bad, based purely on what I think and my perspective.
3) Since this type of racism is somehow consequently objectively and universally more bad, I am justified in making a completely unjustifiable action in *any other circumstance* because it's so much more bad and I think you're scum if you disagree.
4) I'll totally forgive you if you lynch this kid, that's how bad this is. But once you're done curbstomping him, forgive him because he's just making a mistake. See, I can be nice too ^^
5) Please don't jump to conclusions like I just spent an entire post explaining how I did, because it hurts our sponsors.
6) <3 Esports
7) Peace. I really hope I wrote enough that nobody is actually going to read this thoroughly. Alex.


Being passionate about something is all well and good, but making judgements based on that passion is... well, it's what got us into trouble with racism in the first place. There's no reason to plumb this above any other kind of racism, sexism or what have you. There are plenty of equivalent terms, many of which Mr. Garfield has probably used himself at one point or another in anger or frustration, though likely outside the public sphere.

The fact that EG is rooted in an overarching culture that is unashamedly involved in propagating several quite ugly -isms and has done very little if anything to decry/declaim this on its own initiative makes this no less hilariously naive.

Personal distaste is not a sound basis for corporate action. Personal distaste backed by a majority of staff perhaps, or personal distaste backed by evidence that the behaviour had a negative financial impact on the company perhaps, but putting an employee up against the firing squad simply because of a past event where personal sensibilities were retrospectively offended is utterly ludicrous.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
ffdestiny
Profile Joined September 2010
United States773 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1147
On March 09 2012 15:14 fidelity wrote:
The amount of white people defending their "right" to call others nigger, or how nigger really isn't a bad word(according to them), is frightening.


Happens all the time in the playgrounds of the white surburbs of any middle-class area... it's like a talking point for any group of white teenagers.
critique
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States135 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1148
Thanks for a well thought out and equally as well articulated post.
Rodiel3
Profile Joined March 2011
France1158 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1149
what ! racism in Starcraft ? get that shit out of here, just korean race a little imba but we can deal with it
http://www.youtube.com/user/rodiel3 SCBW FPVOD
viticuss
Profile Joined December 2010
United States37 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1150
On March 09 2012 15:14 Argolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:13 ffdestiny wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:
the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality.


Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?

Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism?


I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.


You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others.

Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.


This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism.


Is a christian killing a muslim racism?


Neither Christians nor Muslims are race groups, so I should think not.
Lupita
Profile Joined September 2010
United States290 Posts
March 09 2012 06:17 GMT
#1151
On March 09 2012 15:14 Argolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:13 ffdestiny wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:11 Zzoram wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:
the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality.


Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?

Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism?


I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.


You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others.

Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.


This is a paraphrase of Destiny's post on Reddit, since he's probably too afraid and a black sheep to come to the real spot--he also doesn't want to stir the pot on his TL featured listing. I found it funny that genocide, apartheid, and nazism all were created from the idea of one set of individuals who felt superior over the other... i.e. racism.


Is a christian killing a muslim racism?


I don't think you understand the difference between race and religion. And that would be considered a hate crime.
Do, or do not, there is no try...
Mr.Rager
Profile Joined August 2011
United States59 Posts
March 09 2012 06:18 GMT
#1152
On March 09 2012 15:12 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."

"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."

-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.




Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'.

Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!"

Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!?



Lol? The guy is not even trying to say what they said is heroic. He's trying to say they prove a point and people shouldn't be so worked up about this issue. I'm pretty sure they don't give a flying fuck about being "badass" or "gangsta"; they use the words they use because it expresses their emotions. That's why you use more words than others, right?
And what's wrong with quoting Dune; if it gets your point across, you should be able to use any source.
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
March 09 2012 06:18 GMT
#1153
I get it, you're a business, but how extraordinarily condescending. Done people think words are just words, that making jokes isn't offensive because we atte mature enough to know that there is no malice behind the words. You made the correct decision regarding orb, and your justification is perfectly acceptable. Your rant about the FGC and CS communities are idiotic. "have some growing to do" what a load of shit. They have their own cultures unique to them, bugger off if you don't like it, seriously. I think people who overemphasize the n word (I would use it, but respect this forums rules regarding it) are the people perpetuating the "racism" in the states. Hey look, a difference of opinion, but I said it without the condescending bullshit.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
PorkMac
Profile Joined November 2011
United States2 Posts
March 09 2012 06:18 GMT
#1154
This is probably one of the first longer posts i have read all the way through. I am very pleased to see that the reddit mentality of lambasting players out of existence has no place here, i am also proud of the TL community for being one of understanding in many ways. Like all of the past controversy that ive learned about here, im glad its a place where it can be discussed as well as put behind us
I guess I didn't get completely kicked from the call -Azure
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
March 09 2012 06:18 GMT
#1155
On March 09 2012 15:14 fidelity wrote:
The amount of white people defending their "right" to call others nigger, or how nigger really isn't a bad word(according to them), is frightening.


That's how much entitlement some kids have ... it's pathetic.
Alacast
Profile Joined December 2011
United States205 Posts
March 09 2012 06:18 GMT
#1156
On March 09 2012 15:12 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:04 Alacast wrote:
"Words can carry any burden we wish. All that's required is agreement and a tradition upon which to build."

"I try to tell them that all words are plastic. Word images begin to distort in the instant of utterance. Ideas imbedded in a language require that particular language for expression. This is the very essence of the meaning within the word exotic. See how it begins to distort? Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The [English] which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."

-Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

So long as people adamantly demand that n------ can only and will only ever be a racial slur, it will never stop being a racial slur. Racism and prejudice can and will still continue to exist with or without the usage of one word and ironically, the people historically most damaged by its negative connotation are the only ones to realize that co-opting it in a new context is the only way to render it powerless.




Oh yes.Orb and Destiny's use of the word should be considered 'heroic'.

Or maybe they're a couple of skinny sad-sack rage-nerds that think calling people niggers makes them sound badass. "Look at me, I'm so gangsta! Tee Hee!"

Please stop intellectualizing the mindless misanthropy, self-indulgence and overall stupidity of others -- by quoting DUNE??!?!?!?!?!?



I don't recall where in my post I lauded or even mentioned Orb or Destiny, and I don't consider their actions heroic, I consider them immature and fueled by irrational anger. It doesn't change the fact that stigmatizing words and actions gives them power to offend.

Also, I hope you're not hating on Dune, I found the series (all 6 books) quite well written and interesting; these two quotes happen to come from the fourth book, I realize there could be some confusion with my calling Frank the "God Emperor" of Dune, which is not what I meant. It's simply the book's name.
Let us not rail about justice as long as we have arms and the freedom to use them. -Frank Herbert
lucasfz
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9 Posts
March 09 2012 06:19 GMT
#1157
On March 09 2012 15:13 Heston wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:08 lucasfz wrote:
On March 09 2012 14:52 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.



Kid, welcome to reality. People can get fired nowadays for lewd or inappropriate photos of themselves at a party in college on FB.

"acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop..."

*Sigh*. The absurdly simplistic (and pretty much dead wrong) views expressed in so many posts here reflect the nature of this community as composed by so many youths who don't know any better. Basic norms of appropriateness indicate that this is a clean-cut and obvious "NO" for professionalism - hell, the OP does a great job of explaining, but I guess it can't be helped that some fools can't bring themselves to read it in its entirety.

EG has the right to do whatever they want because they are a business i never said that, and don't get condescending with me just because you went to college and think your smart, and nothing i said was wrong, people shouldn't get offended when it is an empty word not directed towards them or even apply to them, please get your condescending attitude out of here, your not better then me sorry bro

Well the context of Orbs use of the word nigger is pretty concerning to me considering he called him a "dumb nigger", and I think it's a good thing white people aren't turning a blind eye to it.

turning a blind eye for a white person calling another white person a "dumb nigger" how does the word dumb even change anything, that doesnt imply that black people are all stupid, because he added dumb, you could say dumb white person but t hat doesn't imply that all white people are stupid. it is just words, they are harmless, he isnt actually racist.
sharky246
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1197 Posts
March 09 2012 06:19 GMT
#1158
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb?
On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote: being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal. Avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. If you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
viticuss
Profile Joined December 2010
United States37 Posts
March 09 2012 06:19 GMT
#1159
On March 09 2012 15:17 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Dear lord the naiveness in that OP... oaaahhh. It basically reads in TLDR mode:

1) Racism exists and is bad, this is generally accepted (somehow this took like three paragraphs...)
2) However, in particular, this one type of racism is more bad, based purely on what I think and my perspective.
3) Since this type of racism is somehow consequently objectively and universally more bad, I am justified in making a completely unjustifiable action in *any other circumstance* because it's so much more bad and I think you're scum if you disagree.
4) I'll totally forgive you if you lynch this kid, that's how bad this is. But once you're done curbstomping him, forgive him because he's just making a mistake. See, I can be nice too ^^
5) Please don't jump to conclusions like I just spent an entire post explaining how I did, because it hurts our sponsors.
6) <3 Esports
7) Peace. I really hope I wrote enough that nobody is actually going to read this thoroughly. Alex.


Being passionate about something is all well and good, but making judgements based on that passion is... well, it's what got us into trouble with racism in the first place. There's no reason to plumb this above any other kind of racism, sexism or what have you. There are plenty of equivalent terms, many of which Mr. Garfield has probably used himself at one point or another in anger or frustration, though likely outside the public sphere.

The fact that EG is rooted in an overarching culture that is unashamedly involved in propagating several quite ugly -isms and has done very little if anything to decry/declaim this on its own initiative makes this no less hilariously naive.

Personal distaste is not a sound basis for corporate action. Personal distaste backed by a majority of staff perhaps, or personal distaste backed by evidence that the behaviour had a negative financial impact on the company perhaps, but putting an employee up against the firing squad simply because of a past event where personal sensibilities were retrospectively offended is utterly ludicrous.


I don't really want to address your post, but to your last point, perhaps the most important one about financial impact. Alex made it clear in his OP that he felt financial pressure (all the people contacting sponsers), so on that point I would say yes, the language had a potentially adverse effect upon the company.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
March 09 2012 06:19 GMT
#1160
While I can understand the outcome of this whole incident was unavoidable, I am still disappointed. The community, while maybe right in its indignation, completely overreacted to this incident.

And this address, while well written, came of as too preaching, circle-jerky and condescending. It bugs me to see constant references to this imagined shinny, golden future of esports where everything is tame and everyone is held to the highest standards imaginable. It is like we want the community members to be gods, and not humans.

And the only reason these words are so hurtful is because we give them so much power. Incidents like this don't help. I don't approve of what orb said, in fact I hate it when people talk like that on ladder. Its just frustrating how everyone in this community feels like they're so much better than the person they have their fingers pointed at.


On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:

...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community .



This makes it seem like you're only fighting because the community is rallying behind you. So if the community got this riled up when people said faggot, THEN you would take action against the people who spoke it?
=)=
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