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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 15:04 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
You said orb was on a contract. Did that contract state, "If evidence is brought up that in the past before you signed this contract you used offensive racial language than this contract is void and you will be removed." Or something along those lines? I don't understand how something that happened in the past can directly cause someone to be fired unless he is well aware of it and lies up front about it to secure the position. Explain someone, as it really does boggle me. Imagine if you just got hired at best buy, and within the week they fired you because you got fired at a Frys for calling customers "faggots" and "niggers".
Frys and Best Buy are both electronic stores for those who don't know.
If he was under contract i'm sure they would have just paid him out and said see you later.
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On March 09 2012 14:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:51 viticuss wrote:On March 09 2012 14:47 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:39 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:28 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense. Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if caucasians or african americans are more offended by your use of that epithet. Does it matter? Even a black person who takes offense to someone casually stating a racial slur (i.e. one that is not maliciously directed at them) is overreacting. It's a little more acceptable because of extenuating circumstances (e.g. they being black, if they're from a situation of having experienced racism etc. etc.) but they are nonetheless wrong to take offense, because what they should be opposed to is racism viz. racists, not terminology that reminds them of racism. Are you kidding me? A word that has been used in leiu of a whip for generations, a word that retains it's terrible power more than a century after the end of slavery , a word that still symbolizes the very real systematic racism present in our society, is something that people shouldn't be offended by, because it isn't racist? How should someone be able to tell the difference between a non-racist person who casually uses the words and tools of racists, and actual racists? Incredible to me that you find fault with the people who are taking offense, instead of at the person who has casually trodden across the sorest and most devastating sociological fault line in this country. We're not talking about some fantasy land. We're talking about real life; this planet in 2012, where that word is incredibly offensive, and with excellent reason, because the inequalities that it perpetuated are still in existence, just in different forms. Take your fairytale elsewhere. Out comes the token condescension coupled with bafflingly hyperbolic imagery. Let's get real. Yeah, racism exists, but it definitely isn't because of the word "nigger." In fact, it has essentially nothing to do with the word "nigger." I find fault with the people being offended because they're the ones making sure that "sociological fault line" never closes, instead allowing it to remain a scar. The inequalities that it perpetuated? What? See, this is what happens when you're needlessly melodramatic: you start saying stuff that doesn't make any sense. The word nigger never perpetuated anything. It's a word. Racists who used it were racists before using it and racists afterward. The rest of your post is a generic assortment of moralizing, flowery prose, and flatly ridiculous analogies/metaphors. How would I tell the difference between a racist and a non-racist? Uh, definitely not by checking whether they use the N word. How about investigating their lifestyle and interactions with actual minorities? Is that too difficult? Oh, but I suppose we wouldn't be able to judge the shit out of as many people that way. Brb Orb is apparently perpetuating hatred of black people whilst metaphorically whipping them. Please. Did you even read the OP? You don't have to be explicitly a racist to use a racist term. N---r is a racist term and will continue to be so probably for the rest of Americas existence. And the sociological fault line treehugger is referring to is (correct me if I'm wrong) the reality of social life in America. Black people have higher unemployment greater arrest rates higher poverty less opportunity... the list goes on. Social life in America is just about as unequal has it ever been. The fact that people believe racism is "gone" or that using the word n---r is acceptable is a testament to just how ignorant and struturally racist our society is. Tomorrow you wake up and everyone is suddenly incapable of saying the word 'nigger.' Does the unemployment rate go down appreciably? Doubt it.
Shiori has a well articulated argument. It is beyond ignorant to imply that the social inequality in America is because of racism. "Black people have higher unemployment, greater arrest rates, ..." : really? How about lack of education and more proper means of escaping the poverty trap? While it is true that racism is still pervasive in American society, whether overtly or otherwise, it is hardly the basis for divergences from equality. Additionally, the hatred against orb is almost strictly due to American sentiment. Saying "n*****" in Korea has simply does not have the same implications as it would in the states.
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On March 09 2012 15:03 mlspmatt wrote:
This does beg the question how EG is going to respoond the next time Idra curses out someone on ladder using colorful language. I think Alex needs to set guidelines as to what exactley the standard is. Is it bad language in general? Racial language? Where exactley is the line?
There's a lot of room here for charges of hypocracy if they do not remain consistant.
The line is when people start to care.
If IdrA says "Retard" and nobody cares, EG won't care.
If Orb says "Retard" and people care, EG will care.
IS it fair? No.
Life isn't fair though, tough shit.
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On March 09 2012 14:52 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.
Kid, welcome to reality. People can get fired nowadays for lewd or inappropriate photos of themselves at a party in college on FB. "acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop..." *Sigh*. The absurdly simplistic (and pretty much dead wrong) views expressed in so many posts here reflect the nature of this community as composed by so many youths who don't know any better. Basic norms of appropriateness indicate that this is a clean-cut and obvious "NO" for professionalism - hell, the OP does a great job of explaining, but I guess it can't be helped that some fools can't bring themselves to read it in its entirety.
EG has the right to do whatever they want because they are a business i never said that, and don't get condescending with me just because you went to college and think your smart, and nothing i said was wrong, people shouldn't get offended when it is an empty word not directed towards them or even apply to them, please get your condescending attitude out of here, your not better then me sorry bro
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people get so bored when there are no MLGs going on.
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On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.'
Destiny typically ends the debate with, "Well do you think I'm a racist? No? Then what's the problem using these words."
I don't think he's a racist. I think he's wrong about how the rest of the world understands and feels about these words.
He has this attitude like's fighting Big Brother by using forbidden words. But he's just coming off as tone deaf.
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On March 09 2012 15:02 lucasfz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:48 Zzoram wrote:On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl.
How do you even know the people Orb called "nigger" were all white? What if some of them were black? Does that change your view of the situation? Should it matter? maybe not white but i would put money on it that they aren't black, and anyway, orb did this without the intention of being actually racist and assuming the person wasn't, and if they were black, to be honest the word only matters if there is intention behind it, a word does not make somebody racist, a persons belief system, ideas and actions make them racist or not, words are obviously the only thing portraying your ideas you should be careful what you say so people don't get the wrong idea but i don't think it is reasonable to condemn him for saying a word, whether you think he is actually racist or not. The problem is that people still connect the word "nigger" to slavery when it is just referring to the color of somebodies skin, its the reason people think it to not nearly be as bad as honky because white people weren't slaves for hundreds of years. And even the word has lost its connection to the color of somebodies skin, including the word "faggot", people say these things in games and mean completely different things, i say the word "faggot" all the time and im not saying the guy is literally homosexual or even saying anything bad about homosexuals, such words only matter to people whom they apply to, i.e. blacks and gays. I seriously don't understand how people get offended by it when they are neither, these people don't need you to voice for them if they are offended by it, and they should only be offended when it is directed towards them or someone else who is black or gay.
Because people are irrational (and hence overreact to the word "nigger", and no to the phrase "go kille your self").
Alex Garfield has taken an education in social justice, which (based on my prejudices) seems like an useless education designed for people wanting jobs paid by taxpayers, which doesn't create any value. So Alex Garfield could very well be one of those political correct irraitonal types (yeh its probably a generalization, but I think people that have taken an educaiton in math/economy/science would be more logical and wouldn't be too political correct).
On the other hand he might actually have had a lot of complaints and then it would make perfectly sense from a business perspective to fire them (this actually is what a society is supposed to do to create value). But its hard to tell exactly how many complaints he has had from sponsors. Is it like 5 or 100+? IMO there is a huge difference.
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the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality.
Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism?
I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.
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On March 09 2012 15:04 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
You said orb was on a contract. Did that contract state, "If evidence is brought up that in the past before you signed this contract you used offensive racial language than this contract is void and you will be removed." Or something along those lines? I don't understand how something that happened in the past can directly cause someone to be fired unless he is well aware of it and lies up front about it to secure the position. Explain someone, as it really does boggle me. Imagine if you just got hired at best buy, and within the week they fired you because you got fired at a Frys for calling customers "faggots" and "niggers".
Frys and Best Buy are both electronic stores for those who don't know.
Then that would be fine. A company shouldn't have to hire you if they think you have racist tendancies. That would be bad busines for them since it's highly likely that a portion of their customers no doubt are black or gay people.
Edit: Of course what you do in your past is going to effect how people percieve you in the present! Like seriously what world do you live in?
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On March 09 2012 15:04 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
You said orb was on a contract. Did that contract state, "If evidence is brought up that in the past before you signed this contract you used offensive racial language than this contract is void and you will be removed." Or something along those lines? I don't understand how something that happened in the past can directly cause someone to be fired unless he is well aware of it and lies up front about it to secure the position. Explain someone, as it really does boggle me. Imagine if you just got hired at best buy, and within the week they fired you because you got fired at a Frys for calling customers "faggots" and "niggers".
Frys and Best Buy are both electronic stores for those who don't know.
I'm sure they had a clause they could use. I'd say must public figures have terms in their contract about reputation, disrepute and the like.
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Mind blowing that people are defending this kid.
I could understand some sympathy if it was a one time slip up and he admitted to it from the get go but...
Multiple screenshots
Completely denies it and ATTACKS the people who posted it
Only apologizes after he gets hammered with overwhelming evidence that he couldn't figure out how to lie out of
He deserved to get fired.
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On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there.
I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that?
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On March 09 2012 15:07 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. Destiny is a decent guy, but he's an idiot about this matter. Ignoring the derogatory nature word perpetuates it, and doesn't nothing to neuter it or make it 'go away.'
Destiny is a really nice guy... but he has a terrible, close-minded libertarian perspective that prevents him from speaking adeptly on any subject... it always spirals into ideal personal responsibility and red herring arguments with him... he tends also to think that nothing is important other than direct change through personal action, and ignores the movements and traditions that society is built upon. All this was to say that he always side-steps real issues and rants incessantly on his personal agenda.
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On March 09 2012 15:09 _MaKo_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:38 Angelbelow wrote:On March 09 2012 14:36 kineticSYN wrote:
i read that entire wall of text, and was genuinely moved and felt like clapping
then i remembered they have idra on their team, who seems to have absolutely no issue speaking his mind, whether it's "offensive" or not
lol'd, hypocrisy at its finest Lol do you see the mod note on the top of the thread? Alex address' IdrA's behavior there. I saw Alex's comment and I find it hypocritical. Idra has done it many many times over and just gets a tap on the wrist. Orb does it once and gets his career destroyed. Where is the justice in that?
Orb lied about it online and to his employer; Idra didn't?
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This is why well known people should use an unknown smurf account. Hell, day[9] probably does this kind of thing all the time. (just kidding, love day[9])
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I Don't know what's more of an over reaction, this or the naniwa thing
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On March 09 2012 13:04 ObliviousNA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:03 Nick! wrote:
I'm sorry but after this valiant and noble post, how can alex let IdrA get away with calling people ''faggots'' etc on Stream. Agree 100%. Would like to hear a response from Alex Garfield.
As I mentioned on Twitter, we don't let him get away with it. The use of that word is unacceptable, and we've spoken to him about it. Every time there's been an incident, he's heard from us about it. I was under the impression that it had finally ceased as of late. If you can find a recent example of him using it, PM me a link to the VOD, and I'll address it.
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I am completely in this camp. Orb didn't even say these things as an EG employee (or under EG's employ, however you want to put it). In fact, that was Sir Scoot's initial promise on the most recent Live On Three cast. He didn't do it under EG's employ, even if he were lying, and therefore would very obviously get a final, absolute warning that none of his previous behavior would be tolerated now. Scoots bleated on and on about this, with Wheat enthusiastically taking his side, and he still did recently on twitter. And yet they go ahead and dismiss Orb! How is it possible?
How is it possible they dismiss Orb, who never even erred as an Evil Geniuses caster, and simply "talk to" to Idra over his use of the word F-----t as a member and (arguably standard bearer) of EG? I imagine they talked to Huk to over his use of N---a on his tweet, right? It wasn't used as an insult, and had an "A" at the end, but it's pretty equally offensive. How come Huk and Idra got the sort of rational and measured "warnings" that SirScoots promised but failed to deliver to Orb?
The answer's obvious. It's a financial play to save sponsors and appeal to the οι πολλοι on reddit. It reaks of hypocrisy, greed, and sanctimonious nonsense. If I could, I would boycott EG and everything they're involved in, but they seem to have spread everywhere and I don't think it's possible to without giving up on the SC2 community. Oh well. Hope everyone feels happy with themselves!
On March 09 2012 14:31 shockaslim wrote:
I honestly think they should give my dude another chance. Sure, he shouldn't of said that stuff, and as a black person I was mildly offended, but look at other players that rage (which is what is was) and not a fucking thing happens to them? People make mistakes, toss dude a bone, he CLEARLY cares about Starcraft 2, and I don't think this little slip up should stop him from pursuing that.
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On March 09 2012 15:08 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. Really? Racism is the worst thing in the world?
Yeah, how about Genocide, Apartheid, or Nazism? I think those are much, much worse. But don't let me stand in the way of your fake and plastic post Alex.
You do realize that Apartheid is racism right? So is Nazism too since they believed in a superior race that should dominate all others.
Genocide is the eradication of an ethnic group, usually because of the idea that they are inherently inferior or bad, aka racism.
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I dunno, this whole thing just makes me roll my eyes and say ''INTERNETZ IS SERIOUS BUSINESZ''.
Maybe I'm just not mature enough or w/e, but frankly I couldn't care less if someone used the N word in this context and personally I think people are just overreacting.
In fact, I myself throw the word ''nigga'' as a joke quite often, usually with the intention of poking fun at the RAP culture.
I guess the internet where I grew up is dying.
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