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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 14:53 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:51 fourColo wrote:On March 09 2012 14:51 Dannnnn_The_Man wrote:
This is absolutely way too far. Ruin someones dream because they had slipped up? Where is the backing? His casting career isn't ruined what is wrong with you? He probably has a million more fans now who will throw money at him just to see him drop racist remarks. His casting career is probably ruined, and Orb never used racial epithets while casting for any organization. It was while he was laddering that he fucked up. And then reddit decided to lynch him because they have fuck all else to do with their time.
They post well-thought-out gold-level strategies, and tell everyone else to screw off.
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So Alex speaks of getting rid of these words with in our community. He terminates a contract with an employee that used one of those words, and I do believe these incidents were before he was even affiliated with EG. Yet someone like Idra that throws f----t around on the ladder is sitting pretty. Where's the consistency.
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I support how Evil Geniuses handled this completely. There is NO other way to handle it. It sucks for Orb, but this is the real world and this is how things work. If eSports and the Starcraft 2 community wants to be as awesome as I think it can be, we have to hold to these kind of standards.
I am a little confused why people complained to sponsors before EG had a chance to do a little due diligence and make a statement. (insert a couple of sentences about killing esports here)
I would like to express my support to the sponsors... can someone let me know the best way to contact them?
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On March 09 2012 14:52 ffdestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote:
Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. There's a Youtube video ciculating for some time now from Morgan Freeman who defends the justification of the use of the n-word as a racial slur, BY not saying it anymore and addressing everyone as human not black/white/et cetera... I think Destiny gets what Freeman is saying mixed up with his blatant militant ideology that "sticks and stones may break my bones" phrase, while totally (and always) ignoring the actual words he uses... rather dismissive and ignorant.
Emotional abuse is more harmful than physical violence in many instances. The idea that words can never hurt is ludicrous.
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On March 09 2012 14:51 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:47 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:39 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:28 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 tree.hugger wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense. Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if caucasians or african americans are more offended by your use of that epithet. Does it matter? Even a black person who takes offense to someone casually stating a racial slur (i.e. one that is not maliciously directed at them) is overreacting. It's a little more acceptable because of extenuating circumstances (e.g. they being black, if they're from a situation of having experienced racism etc. etc.) but they are nonetheless wrong to take offense, because what they should be opposed to is racism viz. racists, not terminology that reminds them of racism. Are you kidding me? A word that has been used in leiu of a whip for generations, a word that retains it's terrible power more than a century after the end of slavery , a word that still symbolizes the very real systematic racism present in our society, is something that people shouldn't be offended by, because it isn't racist? How should someone be able to tell the difference between a non-racist person who casually uses the words and tools of racists, and actual racists? Incredible to me that you find fault with the people who are taking offense, instead of at the person who has casually trodden across the sorest and most devastating sociological fault line in this country. We're not talking about some fantasy land. We're talking about real life; this planet in 2012, where that word is incredibly offensive, and with excellent reason, because the inequalities that it perpetuated are still in existence, just in different forms. Take your fairytale elsewhere. Out comes the token condescension coupled with bafflingly hyperbolic imagery. Let's get real. Yeah, racism exists, but it definitely isn't because of the word "nigger." In fact, it has essentially nothing to do with the word "nigger." I find fault with the people being offended because they're the ones making sure that "sociological fault line" never closes, instead allowing it to remain a scar. The inequalities that it perpetuated? What? See, this is what happens when you're needlessly melodramatic: you start saying stuff that doesn't make any sense. The word nigger never perpetuated anything. It's a word. Racists who used it were racists before using it and racists afterward. The rest of your post is a generic assortment of moralizing, flowery prose, and flatly ridiculous analogies/metaphors. How would I tell the difference between a racist and a non-racist? Uh, definitely not by checking whether they use the N word. How about investigating their lifestyle and interactions with actual minorities? Is that too difficult? Oh, but I suppose we wouldn't be able to judge the shit out of as many people that way. Brb Orb is apparently perpetuating hatred of black people whilst metaphorically whipping them. Please. Did you even read the OP? You don't have to be explicitly a racist to use a racist term. N---r is a racist term and will continue to be so probably for the rest of Americas existence. And the sociological fault line treehugger is referring to is (correct me if I'm wrong) the reality of social life in America. Black people have higher unemployment greater arrest rates higher poverty less opportunity... the list goes on. Social life in America is just about as unequal has it ever been. The fact that people believe racism is "gone" or that using the word n---r is acceptable is a testament to just how ignorant and struturally racist our society is.
Tomorrow you wake up and everyone is suddenly incapable of saying the word 'nigger.' Does the unemployment rate go down appreciably? Doubt it.
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On March 09 2012 12:45 Cove wrote:
Very professionally executed. Thanks for the reasonable and thoughtful response from yourself and the entirety of EG. gg wp
best way to put it.
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[/QUOTE]
If I mention someone else said Nigger, I'm not being racist. If I tell my little brother(I'm mulatto and so is my brother) that he's a nigger, I'm not being racist. I'm sure there are other examples of how you could say nigger without being racist. The point is, a lot of the shit around the word nigger is white guilt and people over compensating for past racism.
[/QUOTE]
I thought "mulatto" is considered a politically incorrect term for biracial people now. What do you think?
Edit: Need to learn how to quote..
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Don't blame reddit. They kept looking for evidence because orb kept denying it and making conflicting excuses.
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On March 09 2012 14:49 Empirimancer wrote:
Wonderful! Now every public figure in the SC2 community that's not self-employed will have to carefully control his language, not just in situations where's he's expected to act professionally, but also when he's just laddering for his own enjoyment. Soon enough being a public SC2 figure will be like being a politician, everything they do will be scrutinized for signs of immoral behavior.
Yes, racist and homophobic language is disgusting. No, firing someone over the use of said disgusting language outside of his job is not a good idea. Is this the SC2 scene you people really want to create?
Orb is obviously a lying little shit, and I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like him, and EG has obviously been subjected to enormous pressure to fire him, so I don't really blame them, but this era of enforced political correctness that's beginning to dawn upon SC2 professional gaming is just sickening.
Serious question here. You don't think that some pressures on sc2 public figures aren't needed for it to grow as an e-sport?
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On March 09 2012 14:50 Gator wrote:
thank you all for ruining the career of a great caster. be very proud of yourselves for making his life miserable. the standard has now been set, i expect to see no exception from this point on
This is so incredibly true, I just feel sorry for Orb from all this.
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On March 09 2012 14:56 Smat wrote:
If I mention someone else said Nigger, I'm not being racist. If I tell my little brother(I'm mulatto and so is my brother) that he's a nigger, I'm not being racist. I'm sure there are other examples of how you could say nigger without being racist. The point is, a lot of the shit around the word nigger is white guilt and people over compensating for past racism.
[/QUOTE]
I thought "mulatto" is considered a politically incorrect term for biracial people now. What do you think?
Edit: Need to learn how to quote..[/QUOTE]
I haven't heard anyone call me out on it in Canada. I did see that episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where they said that but I don't find it offensive to be called mulatto.
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On March 09 2012 14:49 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
The history of its usage - particularly in the United States is one tied to the literal ownership of people,
I was answering to someone calling the word "Inherently racist". The inherent meaning of word isnt exactly ownership of people, at least not those living today.
On March 09 2012 14:53 iloveAthene wrote:
True, but Protosnake stated that the word "nigger was created to depict the color black." He didn't mention skin color or anything. That's what I was I disputing.
I didnt mentioned skin color because the inherent meaning of the word ISNT AT ALL about skin color. which is why i specified the COLOR black.
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I think if Orb hadn't denied it in the beginning and lied to EG then it wouldn't have snowballed into this. Perhaps he would've got off with just a suspension or harsh warning instead of losing his job.
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Was always a simple decision for EG. People are commentating in this thread like Orb was in fact EGOrb and some sort of full time employee of the team and now hes up shit creek without a paddle. He was going to spend a few weeks in the house and cast the ongoing team league which made it very easy to cut ties with him. I don't want the guy banished to the dark side of the moon and hope to see him casting games in the future. EG's team league is not the only opportunity out there
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On March 09 2012 14:52 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:48 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:40 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:34 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:30 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:27 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist. Inherently racist, how interesting... Any part of that which you aren't getting sweetheart? Yeah, I don't understand how a word can be inherently racist.... The word has been used as a racial slur for centuries, was created as a racial slur and has no other accepted meaning. Thus it's inherently racist. Not very difficult to understand. Except language isn't that cut and dry. Contextually speaking there a number of factors that come into play that determine the meaning of a word to a recipient. Words are rarely if anything inherently anything. In what context is the term 'nigger' not considered racist? If I mention someone else said Nigger, I'm not being racist.
That's a really stupid argument. You could quote someone using any racial epithet, that doesn't prove that the racial epithet isn't entirely racist.
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On March 09 2012 14:55 KingOfAmerica wrote:
I support how Evil Geniuses handled this completely. There is NO other way to handle it. It sucks for Orb, but this is the real world and this is how things work. If eSports and the Starcraft 2 community wants to be as awesome as I think it can be, we have to hold to these kind of standards.
I am a little confused why people complained to sponsors before EG had a chance to do a little due diligence and make a statement. (insert a couple of sentences about killing esports here)
I would like to express my support to the sponsors... can someone let me know the best way to contact them?
I agree - and have contacted several of their sponsors to show my support. (There is no easy "contact sponsor" info out there but if you go to http://myeg.net/team/teameg-sponsors/ you can dig around and find contact info - it did take a little time.)
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On March 09 2012 14:58 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:52 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:48 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:40 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:34 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:30 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:27 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist. Inherently racist, how interesting... Any part of that which you aren't getting sweetheart? Yeah, I don't understand how a word can be inherently racist.... The word has been used as a racial slur for centuries, was created as a racial slur and has no other accepted meaning. Thus it's inherently racist. Not very difficult to understand. Except language isn't that cut and dry. Contextually speaking there a number of factors that come into play that determine the meaning of a word to a recipient. Words are rarely if anything inherently anything. In what context is the term 'nigger' not considered racist? If I mention someone else said Nigger, I'm not being racist. That's a really stupid argument. You could quote someone using any racial epithet, that doesn't prove that the racial epithet isn't entirely racist.
It means that I can say the word without being racist. It means the word isn't inherently racist.
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On March 09 2012 14:58 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:50 Gator wrote:
thank you all for ruining the career of a great caster. be very proud of yourselves for making his life miserable. the standard has now been set, i expect to see no exception from this point on This is so incredibly true, I just feel sorry for Orb from all this.
While I feel it's unfortunate, I think he'll survive. After all, players have returned from past misdeeds which are the equivalent of eSports treason (hacking) to return to active careers.
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On March 09 2012 14:57 H0bgawblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:49 Empirimancer wrote:
Wonderful! Now every public figure in the SC2 community that's not self-employed will have to carefully control his language, not just in situations where's he's expected to act professionally, but also when he's just laddering for his own enjoyment. Soon enough being a public SC2 figure will be like being a politician, everything they do will be scrutinized for signs of immoral behavior.
Yes, racist and homophobic language is disgusting. No, firing someone over the use of said disgusting language outside of his job is not a good idea. Is this the SC2 scene you people really want to create?
Orb is obviously a lying little shit, and I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like him, and EG has obviously been subjected to enormous pressure to fire him, so I don't really blame them, but this era of enforced political correctness that's beginning to dawn upon SC2 professional gaming is just sickening.
Serious question here. You don't think that some pressures on sc2 public figures aren't needed for it to grow as an e-sport?
I'm pretty sure that pitcher for the yankee's that dropped the N bomb on a public train years ago still had a job after he did it. So no, people preach that SC2 needs personalities, yet when people express that personality outside of whats expected of them they get lynched .....
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i'm glad ottersareneat randomly let us know he was straight in this post, a lot of people were wondering
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EPT
