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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038 Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST | ||
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:49 vitruvia wrote: did The Beatles create the 60s or did the 60s create The Beatles? =( you can argue either way, but just don't hate on The Beatles. Sir, there are far more awesome, awe-inspiring artists during the 60s... Hendrix, for one... anyone at the Monterey Pop Festival, for two... | ||
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Dannnnn_The_Man
United States166 Posts
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viticuss
United States37 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:47 Shiori wrote: Out comes the token condescension coupled with bafflingly hyperbolic imagery. Let's get real. Yeah, racism exists, but it definitely isn't because of the word "nigger." In fact, it has essentially nothing to do with the word "nigger." I find fault with the people being offended because they're the ones making sure that "sociological fault line" never closes, instead allowing it to remain a scar. The inequalities that it perpetuated? What? See, this is what happens when you're needlessly melodramatic: you start saying stuff that doesn't make any sense. The word nigger never perpetuated anything. It's a word. Racists who used it were racists before using it and racists afterward. The rest of your post is a generic assortment of moralizing, flowery prose, and flatly ridiculous analogies/metaphors. How would I tell the difference between a racist and a non-racist? Uh, definitely not by checking whether they use the N word. How about investigating their lifestyle and interactions with actual minorities? Is that too difficult? Oh, but I suppose we wouldn't be able to judge the shit out of as many people that way. Brb Orb is apparently perpetuating hatred of black people whilst metaphorically whipping them. Please. Did you even read the OP? You don't have to be explicitly a racist to use a racist term. N---r is a racist term and will continue to be so probably for the rest of Americas existence. And the sociological fault line treehugger is referring to is (correct me if I'm wrong) the reality of social life in America. Black people have higher unemployment greater arrest rates higher poverty less opportunity... the list goes on. Social life in America is just about as unequal has it ever been. The fact that people believe racism is "gone" or that using the word n---r is acceptable is a testament to just how ignorant and struturally racist our society is. | ||
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fourColo
United States363 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:51 Dannnnn_The_Man wrote: This is absolutely way too far. Ruin someones dream because they had slipped up? Where is the backing? His casting career isn't ruined what is wrong with you? He probably has a million more fans now who will throw money at him just to see him drop racist remarks. | ||
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Megabuster123
Canada1837 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:48 Silvertine wrote: In what context is the term 'nigger' not considered racist? If I mention someone else said Nigger, I'm not being racist. If I tell my little brother(I'm mulatto and so is my brother) that he's a nigger, I'm not being racist. I'm sure there are other examples of how you could say nigger without being racist. The point is, a lot of the shit around the word nigger is white guilt and people over compensating for past racism. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Dont blame eg though, they probably had to fire them if there were lots of complains. | ||
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:50 checkplus wrote: Jesus destiny's response is pretty much: bury your head in the sand and ignore the N word and it'll go away eventually. Pretty ignorant. There's a Youtube video ciculating for some time now from Morgan Freeman who defends the justification of the use of the n-word as a racial slur, BY not saying it anymore and addressing everyone as human not black/white/et cetera... I think Destiny gets what Freeman is saying mixed up with his blatant militant ideology that "sticks and stones may break my bones" phrase, while totally (and always) ignoring the actual words he uses... rather dismissive and ignorant. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:46 lucasfz wrote: I think this is ridiculous, like seriously rofl how many people here have actually been discriminated against by orb? none of you, so why are you getting offended? how is orb racist because he called a white person a "nigger"? Its just a word rofl like seriously? if he was sympathizing slavery or white supremacy then yeah that is racism, but this is not, and the whole EG thing, it is stupid that he would get fired for something he did before he became a part of EG and represented them. and everyone getting offended probably lives sheltered lives in nice places and get offended over things for no reason acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop saying "nigger." Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me, this is the way i was raised, i wish all of you were too so there weren't so many issues and people getting offended by stupid shit in the world. get some thick skin and grow up please. I mean you don't even need thick skin because none of this is even directed towards you because 95% of you are white. rofl. Kid, welcome to reality. People can get fired nowadays for lewd or inappropriate photos of themselves at a party in college on FB. "acting like they are freeing slaves by telling people to stop..." *Sigh*. The absurdly simplistic (and pretty much dead wrong) views expressed in so many posts here reflect the nature of this community as composed by so many youths who don't know any better. Basic norms of appropriateness indicate that this is a clean-cut and obvious "NO" for professionalism - hell, the OP does a great job of explaining, but I guess it can't be helped that some fools can't bring themselves to read it in its entirety. | ||
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Silvertine
United States509 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:49 SnuggleZhenya wrote: The history of its usage - particularly in the United States is one tied to the literal ownership of people, and later their lynching in public square with the consent of law enforcement. It is a history of state sponsored terrorism. It is a blight on our history and to casually use the word now saying that its meaning is a general curse word is just plain ignorant of that history. It has become so normalized in the gaming community that maybe to some people it really is only a general curse word, but you don't get to use ignorance of the history as an excuse. I've seen just about every justification possible in this thread, but I am sorry, its just not acceptable to use this kind of language. I refuse to give Destiny any views. Orb has issues an apology which is acceptable to me for now, but EG absolutely had to let him go for this. Maybe this community is so cloistered that many people here really feel that it wasn't a serious issue. Maybe as gamers we take pride in not being mainstream in some cases, not having to be politically correct, and the history of anonymity on the internet probably adds to this. But we are real people and our words matter. Very refreshing to read a logical view on this issue. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
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iloveAthene
186 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:48 corumjhaelen wrote: I have to agree The French word "nègre" was also used by people opposing slavery or defending black and white equality in France. You could also think of Senghor's concept of "negritude" to show a more modern reappropriation of the word. Which still not means calling someone a nigger is ok. True, but Protosnake stated that the word "nigger was created to depict the color black." He didn't mention skin color or anything. That's what I was I disputing. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:48 crms wrote: yeah he 'gives him a stern talking too!' What a joke, ruin some kids career over some ladder rage. We act like esports is going to suffer if justice isn't done swiftly. News flash, nobody cares about this and nobody is covering it. You aren't going to see the MSN headline that 'starcraft caster used racial slur in a videogame match' anywhere and EG isn't going to lose sponsors. Way to ruin a kids career over something like I said earlier 99.9% of gamers online have done or said. Way to take the 'moral' high road that doesn't exist. Orbs career didn't deserve such a harsh blow and then when people point out the obvious double standard with idra. "@beesinyoface yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." Wow, bravo, well done. Now it's all so clear. I hope that all those fucking drama maniacs that poured over orb's posting history and vod saves do the same thing for idra. All the people that cried for orb's expulsion to EG's sponsors do the same thing but replace orb with idra. Because if you go digging you're going to find far worse stuff said in rage from idra then you ever have from orb. I hope the fervor is the same. Esports will suffer if we continue complain to sponsors over stuff like this. Why would they want to sponsor this community then? For what its worth I thought it was too harsh too but I don't disagree with the decision. Orb is a great caster and I will continue to watch his content and I hope he lands on his feet. Unfortunately the reddit "white knights" get there way.. | ||
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Megabuster123
Canada1837 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:51 fourColo wrote: His casting career isn't ruined what is wrong with you? He probably has a million more fans now who will throw money at him just to see him drop racist remarks. His casting career is probably ruined, and Orb never used racial epithets while casting for any organization. It was while he was laddering that he fucked up. And then reddit decided to lynch him because they have fuck all else to do with their time. | ||
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hXc Chris
United States25 Posts
There have been cash cow's for "EG" that say things such as "go kill yourself f--gg-t" and other ridiculously offensive things that just get a "oh thats just so and so hes just BM" No action taken what so ever. If people should lose their jobs over a mistake or even past mistake with a zero tolerance policy then it should be CONSISTENT. Also speaking of mistakes, maybe EG should've been shunned for the PUMA incident a lot worse than they really were/ Shady business is shady business after all right? The gaming community trying to teach people how to behave is like North Korea trying to teach South Korea how to run a Country. Hypocritical nonsense at best, i'm not condoning what Orb did but lets be honest with ourselves for a second. I get called those things on a daily basis on battlenet and xboxlive. This community wants to outrage because of it fine, make an example of one person. That means ZERO TOLERANCE for everyone going forward. Professionals, casuals, and more importantly THE FACES OF THE COMMUNITY. Otherwise all this was, was a witch hunt that over-reacted in every way possible. Alex Garfield may have never said the "n word" in his entire life(dont believe it but whatever) but I guarantee he's said or done some completely ignorant things at some level of his life. Every one has skeletons, even you Garfield. Or wait are you a perfect human being? I can only hope Alex that at some point in your life someone shines a spotlight on your Skeletons so the community has even more of a reason to go searching for every negative thing in your past. Thanks for casting the first stone, you must truly be an Angel. | ||
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stillearning
12 Posts
All of EG seems to try and operate as a single family unit, meaning there is no room for error Gotta say that I think this may have been the right choice to keep everyone together. Generosity of sponsors will hopefully stay high after this incident. Oftentimes, I worry that events like this could shatter what we have worked so hard to build. Troubled times may be ahead, but I truly hope they are not. Nevertheless, I feel as though Alex made the right choice here. I can put myself in his shoes, and know that it must have been difficult to make. Gratifying as it is that he got what he deserved, I think it may have been a little harsh. Gifted talent such as orb shouldn't be lost so easily in the community. Everyone must come together now more than ever to show how great we can truly be. Really People??? | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:43 huameng wrote: If it doesn't matter, why did you say " You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people."? Do you still agree with that -- it seems like you don't because you didn't actually say what you thought the results would be, but I don't know. Second, orb was not casually stating a racial slur as you define it -- he was maliciously directing it toward his opponent. Maybe you meant something else, but are you agreeing that it's okay for people to be offended by what orb did? Last, why do you think it's wrong for people to be offended if you say "nigger" around them? "Nigger" isn't terminology that reminds people of racism -- "Klan member" is. "Nigger" is the strongest racial epithet in America. I don't think many people in this thread are claiming that people should be offended that someone types nigger like we are doing, or says it in similar context, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about calling people niggers. The essential point is that the people causing a stir about racism are almost invariably white people (especially in this instance). Black people, as far as I have noticed, take offense to racism when it is applied directly to them or, in more famed cases, when it is politically prudent to do so (see fringe arguments from Obama's election). Yes, I meant something else, namely that racist intent is as important as the word chosen. To be honest, saying something like "you're just a lazy piece of shit, because that's what you were born to be" would be a HELL of a lot more offensive to any black person than simply calling them a "nigger" would be, if not for societal taboos and overreactions to the point that the N word is practically deified as the king of bad words. I think it's "understandable" that someone would be offended by casual use of the word nigger, just like I understand if someone who was raped is hurt by a joke about rape, or someone who was victimized by sexism is offended by sexist jokes or the like. Nevertheless, understanding is something much different from thinking it's justified or optimal that someone be offended. The only reason I understand is because of emotion. A perfectly reasonable person, free from emotion or the like clouding their judgment, should not have much reason to be angered by casual racist/sexist/whatever remarks, because they should understand that intent, not letters, causes crimes, and that if there was nothing behind the words, then the words are at worse rude and un-called for, but never some capital evil. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
Although I think EG may have went a little far with the termination, it's certainley their decision and I respect it. Idra himself is no choir boy and uses colorful language at times. | ||
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ProBot
Canada170 Posts
First off i can almost guarantee that 99.9% of people complaining about this are WHITE who really are bitching about it for the sake of bitching. As you stated before he said what he said before being hired and don't believe he's racist which would be a slightly ludicrous accusation to make to begin with. So essentially you screwed the kid for the sake of screwing him is what it comes down to. Mind you I'm not ignorant to the fact that it's your company and your call, but lets be real here you fired the guy for something not even related to your company and all honesty not a representation as him as a person. Now I'm not defending him for saying it, and i don't i say it myself, but we're not living in the 50's anymore and the term has been turned into a general thing almost the same as say "oh that's gay". Which again is a phrase that everyone complaining about orb has most likely used at some point of time, and if he would of said "gay" or "Phag" instead of the n bomb there wouldn't be an issue. So in my eyes it's a retarded double standard, and if anyone knows any homosexuals they call each other phags more than any straight person ever will. Hell i'm pretty sure incontrol and machine have said the word gay several times on thier streams and greg ... well we all know the things that flew out of his mouth at times, but greg's still with you and are you going to cut Incontrol and Machine for using homophobic language? Of course not and i hope you wouldn't because they seem like great guys. Where am i going with this? Consistency .... don't advocate one thing and give your players a certain amount of room of error and then turn around and cut other employees at a drop of a dime. You have an undergrad for black studies .... great, good for you more people should educate themselves in other cultures than their own. Do you speak for black people? Of course not, so then ... why? Again I don't condone what he said but don't preach against racism and homophobia unless your actually going to hold to it, and not half ass it when it comes to your money players. That being said i do understand and respect where your coming from regardless if i agree with it or not and in the end what does anything i say really matter. To the community ... Grow the fuck up. A guy lost his job because most of you decided to bitch for the sake of bitching, like really? Is this what the sc2 community has come down to? Do you play ladder? Do read some of the ignorant shit some people say? Hell lets forget ladder, how about MLG and IEM chat on twitch? And by "some people" that probably includes a lot of you .... disgusting. | ||
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leandroqm
Netherlands874 Posts
A Strange fact for you guys to think about: in Brazil it's the opposite. You can say negro but can't say preto (black). | ||
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